Chris Howard is in the hot seat as we talk about his story. We learn how a dysfunctional upbringing and lack of discipleship doesn’t prevent God from protecting, providing and giving purpose and showing how his power is made perfect in weakness (2 Corinthians 12:9).
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What does God do with a childhood full of dysfunction and no one to show you the way? In this episode, Chris Howard takes the hot seat and tells his story — a rough North Denver block, a legalistic church with no gospel, a locker-room invitation at seventeen, and years of zigzagging without discipleship — and how God protected, provided, and gave purpose through all of it: “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness” (2 Corinthians 12:9). Below: the key chapters of Chris’s story, the themes worth stealing, and the full episode transcript.
North Denver: Dysfunction, a Cult, and Unexpected Protection
Chris’s parents divorced when he was two; he grew up with his mom and grandparents on a North Denver block colorful enough to deserve a book — feuding families, street fights, substance abuse, and gangs moving in. His grandparents belonged to a legalistic, Old-Testament-law church that never preached Jesus as salvation — a group he’d describe as a cult. And yet, looking back, Chris sees God’s protection hiding inside even that: the strict Sabbath-keeping kept him home on the exact nights the neighborhood kids were finding trouble, and the daily bus ride to a better part of town showed a nine-year-old that another kind of life existed.
The Watermelon, the Move, and the Locker Next to Shane
A dropped watermelon — and the frightening look on his grandfather’s face, shaped by struggles Chris would only understand later — accelerated his move to Texas at eleven. Carrollton meant safety but also a latchkey adolescence: mom waitressing doubles and triples, varsity football at fifteen, older crowds, parties, and a lingering fear-of-God guilt from the old religion with no gospel to resolve it. Then God placed a locker next to Shane Christopher — the guy everyone respected, who kept inviting, friendly and unembarrassed. Chris finally said yes, and at a Sunday-night Bible study a man named Barry Bolin laid out the gospel with one picture that stuck: there’s a throne in your heart, and either you sit on it or Jesus does. At seventeen, Chris knew his own reign wasn’t working — and gave the throne to Christ. The takeaway both hosts land on: they were each saved because somebody made an invite. Never underestimate one.
Saved at Seventeen — Then Years Without Discipleship
No overnight transformation followed. With no one discipling him, Chris waffled between old friends and new for years — a believer with a Bible, trust issues, and a people-pleasing streak, not even sure what counted as sin. A semester at Arizona surrounded him with pressure to do wrong; the Holy Spirit made it plain this wasn’t his place, and he left after one semester. Baylor flipped the peer pressure toward faith — church again for the first time in years, baptism at Calvary Baptist in Waco, lifelong friends — but still no one showed him how to actually follow Jesus day by day. His honest diagnosis of those wandering years: nobody offered, and he didn’t know to ask. It’s the episode’s quiet warning to every church and every believer: conversion without discipleship leaves people swinging between extremes, trying life on without a roadmap.
The Dairy Farmers Building: Where Faith Met Works
Back in DFW with a management information systems degree — chosen deliberately, because the kid from North Denver wanted security — Chris met his wife Jessica at a Dallas Bible study, and after moving to Flower Mound they walked into a little church meeting in a building marked “Dairy Farmers”: 121. It felt nothing like the fakery he’d known — it felt real, small enough to be known, and there for the first time he watched faith and works operate together. Serving became normal; missions became DNA; and the trajectory bent again — out of IT into nonprofit work, including a ministry serving single mothers, the very situation he’d been raised in, which brought its own healing. Today, twenty-five years married, raising Clara after a battle with infertility, working in digital marketing where an old abandoned major finally bloomed — Chris can trace every zigzag and say what explains it: only the grace of God.
Why Vulnerability Is the Whole Point
Mike names what the story shows: a man with dysfunction as his inheritance — no father modeled, no discipleship offered — now faithfully serving his wife, discipling his daughter, and pouring into others. Nothing explains that trajectory change except Jesus. And that’s the podcast’s thesis in miniature: both hosts admit they’re not quite there, vulnerability is the key that unlocks growth, and a wandering past makes you relatable to every kind of person still wandering. If that’s you — stuck, without a roadmap, not even sure what to ask or who to ask — the guys’ invitation is open: reach out, share your story, and at the very least be prayed for.
Scriptures From This Episode
2 Corinthians 12:9 — God’s power made perfect in weakness — the banner over the whole story, with the gospel picture of the throne of the heart at its center.
Go deeper: Scripture on Guidance · Scripture on Discipleship · Scripture on Grace · How Can I Know I Am Saved?
Full Transcript — Not Quite There, Episode 3: Life Without A Roadmap
Chris: So what’s your drink of choice there, Mr. Mike, it looks like you have a venti. Uh something or other.
Mike: Yep, some people call it jet fuel. It is a venti. Cold brew with no ice and two raw sugar. Do you know why I do no ice? Tell me why. Because when they put ice in the cup, you get barely any coffee And a lot of ice. And it gets watered down and then you just disgusting. It’s just disgusting. It’s the worst thing ever. So just a cold brew, my friends, with no ice and some uh raw sugar? How do you That’s doing the trick, huh? How do you take your coffee
Chris: I usually do a tall latte with heavy cream. Heavy cream. Heavy cream. Yeah. Yeah. And then that’s a You want the heavy calories. I want the heavy cow I mean I don’t know what my day’s gonna be like so I just I don’t want to load I’m loading up.
Mike: I am I am fat loading I mean fat loading is probably a good segue to what kind of reviews and feedback we’ve been getting.
Chris: What kind of fat did we get? Yeah.
Mike: You tell me what you I feel like you got some of the main the main stuff.
Chris: Yeah, one of the things was that hey uh coming on into the podcast, maybe we can heighten up the energy and uh kind of start it off with a little bit. Maybe not screaming, but uh Yeah, some excitement. Like some applause, do you think? Maybe. Maybe yeah. That’s probably a little too much.
Mike: Hey everyone, not quite there. Hey. Hey.
Chris: Hey. Hey, you were not quite there. That’s all I got.
Mike: I don’t think people want us to have that high of energy. Let’s not do that.
Chris: We’ll take with a grain of salt. We’ll uh we’ll just try to be ourselves here as we’re coming in. That’s good.
Mike: Well, before we turn our attention to what we’re talking about today, we did also get another phone call from a guest on how we’ve been doing. I wanted to play that for you because I know you haven’t heard I heard this yet. Let’s take a listen.
Voicemail: Hey Mike, hey Chris. This is Michael, I heard you got the podcast launched. I heard it’s out there. Wanting to wish you a lot of success. I want to wish you uh a knockout when it comes to subscribers. I think it’s gonna be great. And I also know that uh you know others have seen my career that there have been times where I’m not quite there. I’m trying to get there. Thank you. Thank you for your podcast.
Mike: Wow, the job. Wow. Yeah. Wow, Mike Tyson. himself he has a fight coming up doesn’t he uh I think so some word about that he’s fighting Jake Paul coming up he’s gotta be what sixty seventy five I don’t know yeah seventy five fighting like a thirty year old yeah he’s probably gonna win too I would still be afraid Do you remember Mike Tyson’s punch out? Did you ever play the video game? Yes, I remember Piston Honda in the world.
Chris: Yeah, who’d go bald bull? Yeah. Bald bull. That’s right. Get him when he’s coming in hot. Exactly.
Mike: Yes. Right away. Right away. Yeah, well good to hear from uh from old Mike. Thank you. Thank you, Tyson. We appreciate it. Good luck to you with your future endeavors.
Chris: Yes. Knock out whoever you are uh fighting, I would say.
Mike: Well we’ll we’ll go for you. So we figured that As we got this podcast going, that uh as Chris was saying earlier, we’re gonna share our stories. And we just wanna do that so you get a chance to get to know us a little bit better. put each other on the hot seat so uh we can lead the lead the charge with that. So today is Chris’s turn to be on the hot seat.
Both: Are you feeling I’m feeling strong, my f
Mike: Are you feeling strong, my friend?
Chris: I’m not feeling strong at all. I’m feeling uh kind of vulnerable here because you did such a bang up job last week. Yeah, you did. This can’t be a thing that we give each other compliments back up.
Mike: You know you did. Everyone’s hurt all week. If y’all turn it off, we understand. But hang on with us.
Chris: Thank you for setting the tone because it’s basically nowhere to run to, nowhere to hide. I’ve got to I’ve got to bring my story today and uh kind of open up the vault a little bit, be a little bit vulnerable I think, just to keep some continuity here. So um that’s that’s what I’ve been Working on this week is kind of preparing, you know. You gotta have to go back into the weeds a bit. Go through some of the the good and the bad and uh You know, it’s almost like a a colonoscopy of the soul. Oh. A solonoscopy. Wow. Yeah. So that’s what we’re dealing with today, folks.
Mike: Really good term right there, solonoscopy. Have you ever had a colonoscopy? I have no
Chris: Not. You’ve never had one? I have not. Is this what everybody’s doing?
Mike: I Well, I I guess we’re just gonna be real and uh really transparent here. So I’ve had Three of them.
Chris: Three of them.
Mike: Apparently you’re not supposed to get them until your is it four fifties? Yeah.
Chris: That’s uh it’s coming up for me, but one it was a long story for another time.
Mike: I was on a mission trip. I took way too much Imodium. Oh no. I blocked, I was popping them like candy. I was nervous by getting sick. Came back, had my appendix out, had a colonoscopy, and then that led to them finding some stuff, had a couple other ones. Oh my god. Just for funsies, of course. I’m all good now Okay, I’m glad you’re good. Three colonoscopies.
Chris: You’ve never had one. No, I haven’t.
Mike: To those of you who’ve had one, you all understand. Here, let me get some things out of the way for you. Some fears that every guy has about this The day of is the easiest easiest thing you’ll ever do. And no, you don’t feel anything during or after. Because a lot of guys’ fears are what am I gonna how am I gonna walk? Am I gonna like penguin walk it afterwards? It’s not sure. It’s the greatest it’s the greatest day ever. It’s the greatest thing ever. The night before. It’s the night before the night before. That is that’s the worst. Four to five hours of Things that transpire you did not know was in your body. So that old Snickers body. It finds a way to get there. Okay, so you’ve never had one, so we’ll talk about that. We’ll probably do an episode actually from the room when you have your future one.
Chris: Well that’d be fun. Um look forward to that.
Mike: So no colon cleaning for you, but let’s do a little soul cleaning. Let’s get back on the right track. So okay. Why don’t you start us off by telling us I mean, like everyone’s story, a little bit of your childhood, um kinda what was as you said to little Mike last week, what was little Chris doing when he was growing up.
Chris: Yeah, there’s uh there’s quite a bit to unpack here in knowing that um in w walking down this road today there’s There’s a lot of little off roads we can take, a lot of little uh you know, trails and uh I really don’t want to do that because we can we can talk about that in other episodes. And I think it actually would be better if we did. Um so this will be more sticking to the main roads. You know, we won’t be uh we won’t go chasing waterfalls uh today here, so we’re gonna stick to the uh the uh paths that we are used to. Um but childhood, um born in Miami, Florida, I don’t remember much about it because uh my parents divorced when I was two, and so We moved back to my mother’s hometown, Denver, Colorado, the Mile High City. Uh-huh. I could actually see Mile High Stadium from uh the bedroom uh where we lived, which was with my grandparents. Um We did a quick jaunt on over to Texas for about a year and a half. Uh my mother met a guy. He lived in Dallas. We went out there to live with him. It didn’t work out. It was a bad idea. He was an abusive guy. uh toward her. Um I remember him throwing a hairbrush at me when I was about five or so. And so, you know, we that didn’t last very long. We got away from him. And so but that was my first um look at um, you know, somebody with a lot of dysfunction and we would move back to Denver and that’s where you’d see a lot more dysfunction, you know. Um living with family. Our block was uh you could write a book about uh my block. It was uh it’s m be something that I actually end up doing at some point, but
Mike: Um writing a book about the block?
Chris: Yeah, because it had so many different characters there, you know. There were just a lot of families there that did Though if anybody else were to walk on the block, it probably would be bad news for them if they didn’t have good intentions, but um inside that block there was a lot of families that didn’t like each other. And so you couldn’t trust your neighbors. Um there were fights between uh men, fights between women, women fighting men. Uh you just saw this play out on the streets there uh on my block. So a lot of dysfunction, a lot of bad decisions. Um, you know, there were a lot of people that were dealing with substance abuse that you know I would later come to find out. But Uh yeah, uh different names for people too. I mean I was just thinking about some of the people on our block. There was the chicken lady, there was uh nosy grace, uh Michael the caveman, uh Gerard the Freaker. Uh Two Faced Jack. I mean just real creative names which were basically given by the uh family of fourteen that were living next to the biggest. Oh, so you didn’t make these up. This was just what well they were known by uh we had a family that lived on the middle of the block and they um They seemed to be the most critical of everybody and uh you know, there were fourteen of ’em and some of the older the kids, they just decided to name just about everybody there.
Mike: And so why was Michael the caveman just pop quiz. He had a lot of hair.
Chris: That was the whole thing. So yeah, so it wasn’t the most uh encouraging place to be. It was a rough neighborhood. Denver at the time was uh dealing with a lot of gang Gangs coming in from California plus the homegrown gangs, and so North Denver was just not the greatest place to live, and you don’t think about that when you think of Denver, Colorado, usually. We seem to be in the place where uh you know, not a lot of good stuff was going on. So but um Uh it’s weird because and I say weird, but strange and good in the sense that uh uh looking back I could see how God protected me in that because A lot of the kids my age, they were uh getting into trouble. Um you know, I’m I’m here about nine or ten years old and uh we have a lot of kids on the block and they’re doing some bad things, but At the time, my grandparents are part of this church, which would be um, you know, it would be uh labeled a cult uh back then. I think they’ve done some things to change that here recently, but um Yeah, very Judaic in practice. You know, you followed a lot of the Jewish custom, uh Jewish tradition. Um we weren’t Jewish, but it felt like we were because we were uh basically living according to Old Testament law there at my grandparents’ house. What what made it a cult? What do you mean by cult? The fact that they really didn’t uh advocate Jesus. They didn’t say Jesus is your salvation. Uh kind of following the Old Testament laws was The way that uh they said that you could achieve salvation and be part of those that would actually be saved in the end when the world ended. And so Yeah. Um Wow But yeah, that’s that’s what they believed at the time and um you know, my mother didn’t uh really believe in it, but we were with my grandparents and so I kinda had to follow uh their rules there. And and though I didn’t go to church with them, I Uh I wasn’t allowed on Friday night or Saturday day to go outside and play or to um Uh watch TV or or Sabbath Sabbath roll. Okay. Exactly. They they observe the Sabbath from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. And so um Yeah, we tha that that’s what kept me out of a lot of trouble looking back on it, I could say, is that you know, I wasn’t there going out on Friday nights with my friends, uh, walking around the block uh doing bad things or on Saturdays when they were, you know, uh coming across things that they didn’t need to and and doing things they didn’t need to, that, you know, I wasn’t part of that. And that kind of kept me a little bit sheltered there too. Um another thing that I remember being um at least helpful in the long run is that You know, during that time Denver was busing kids from the north side of town, uh to the south side of town, which was a much better uh uh place to live. It was in Littleton, Colorado, and we would take a bus and go about thirteen or fourteen miles to school uh for fourth through sixth grade and just riding the bus, riding down I-25, uh, you know, seeing Mile High Stadium and seeing uh you know the downtown Denver Uh I got to see that on a daily basis and I also got to see a nicer part of town and see how people lived and That just opened my eyes to wow there’s something outside of the north side here. Um you also got to see the mountains in the background, which was amazing. Yeah. Um but it also reminded me that This is not the way we live. And um, you know, we we we’re we’re kinda poor. And so that reality set in. Um But again, I think God used that to show me, okay, there’s there’s life outside of North Denver. This isn’t just it. And you were n y this is when you were nine or ten.
Mike: This is when I’m nine or ten. You’re starting to get outside of that comfort zone or or whatever, that upbringing, and you you’re realizing, okay, people live differently than us. Maybe we’re poor or or poor is the realization. Okay, and then where to from there? Because is there even anything with God there at all?
Chris: Or is it just really kid growing up? Okay. No, it’s uh it’s more fear, fear of God, because if you don’t Uh do the things right, if you don’t uh keep the the laws, if you don’t uh clean your house and make sure that it’s uh free of bread on the the days of unleavened bread, then you know that might be inviting God to uh To lay a smack to you. So, yeah. Exactly. Okay. So where to you from there? So okay. Um my mother moves out to Texas ahead of me. Um again, no boyfriend this time, but uh she’s out there, she’s working. Uh I’m the understanding is that I’m going to join her and uh we there’s no real timeline there. There’s no uh you know set date and so I’m I’m kinda floundering there, going to school. Um I’m I’m starting to get a little bit mean myself and so, um, you know, Denver being a rough neighborhood Uh uh I start acting out. I start getting into the fights on the bus, fights at school, fights out there, you know, um when it’s not the Sabbath. So uh that starts to show and um You know, I’m the uh becoming the typical North Denver kid, I would say. Um without meaning to. Uh but there’s one thing that kinda uh speeds up that timeline of me joining my mother out in Dallas. Um I’m helping my grandfather with some groceries from the car. Uh he has me pick up a watermelon to carry it on inside and I trip and the watermelon goes all over the sidewalk and so I go, you know, uh I’ve just dropped this watermelon. I figure, okay, um I’m gonna be in trouble. And I look up and my grandfather who’s never raised a hand to me, um, you know, always has been funny to me He looks like he just wants to kill me. I mean he is the look in his face and uh you know, I would come to understand more about him and alcohol and uh, you know, kind of what he was going through, but Uh I run. I do the only thing that I know to do and I run and I run to a neighbor’s house and um uh I wait. I have the neighbor call um or she decides she’s gonna call my grandmother and find out if it’s okay for me to come home and it is, but that puts the process uh quickly in place of getting me to Dallas. And that’s the that’s the last time of that I see my grandfather. Uh the last time I talked to him actually Um but that uh that got me to Texas and and I’m out from there. I’m out. I’m out of North Denver and that feels pretty good.
Mike: Yeah. Wow. That’s um uh by the time you moved to Texas, how how old are you now? I am now eleven. Okay. So it’s just eleven. So this wasn’t like a handful of more years. It was just okay. Yeah.
Chris: I’m I’m eleven and uh move out there with my mom. We quickly moved to Carrollton, Texas, which is like Littleton, Colorado. I mean it without the mountains, but it’s clean, it’s fresh. It’s a newer suburb and uh things feel great. I you know, uh there there’s no fear of walking around the streets there in Carleton. Um You know, you don’t see a lot of uh violence, you don’t see a lot of arguing, you don’t see
Mike: That, you know, they’re I’m sure it’s there, but it’s not uh What is Carrollton even Carrollton’s suburb of Dallas Fort Worth. It is. Right. So what’s Carolton even known for? They have like Like a famous Brahms in the corner or what does did they have at the time it felt as vanilla as vanilla can be.
Chris: It wasn’t Plano. It wasn’t uh um It was your your just typical suburb at the time. There wasn’t any big draw there. Okay. And that Kinda felt good.
Mike: Yeah. It’s a big shift from from North Denver. It sounds like from what you’re saying to I mean, suburb, just regular old vanilla suburb. Okay, so you land there, you’re with your mom.
Chris: I’m with my mom. She is a waitress. She’s working doubles and triples. I’m a latchkey kid at this time. Uh, you know, I come home, I’d do my homework, um, maybe, you know, baseball practice, uh start playing some sports and but Basically it’s me and MTV and cable and if some of my friends want to get together, we get together and I’m over at their house. But do you play baseball too? Do we both play baseball?
Mike: Do we know another one? What position did you play? I played third base. Oh I was second and shortstop. Oh very good. We’re baseball buddies. Yeah. Oh man. I’d turn a double play sometime. Did not know that. Wow. Wow. I heard that double play. I heard that. That’s a good one. Should I add like a laugh track?
Chris: Add a laugh track in the thing.
Mike: I don’t have it on me, but next time. There’s a crickets track. Maybe a baseball uh something or other. I mean that was a really good joke. We’re gonna go we’re gonna let’s get back okay, let’s get back to this here. So you so you okay, you’re with your mom. This is live as a kid, so From here, I mean where does d does Jesus even come into your life? Does this happen yet? Is that way later?
Chris: Like nothing about Jesus yet. Uh we both don’t want anything to do with church at this point. Especially after your experience. Yeah, my mom has she has no time for it, number one, and then I’m just not looking for any kind of rules, you know, this is the This is some freedom here, uh freedom of schedule. I am going out on Fridays with friends and you know uh the Saturdays and it’s just it’s a whole different world. But But we’re still poor. Yeah. We’re we’re living uh from apartment to apartment. Um, you know, we’re just uh you know mom’s She she ha my mom has several different jobs, you know, and then sometimes those jobs get changed over and she’s doing the best she can. She she’s working really hard. Um but I’m also not wanting to get into too much trouble either. Sure. Uh, there to make it any harder, so There’s that. Yep. Yep. Um my grandmother would come um join us after my grandfather passed away, which was a couple years after uh I moved. Um and then with that there’s more stability. You know, there’s somebody else at home and uh I’m uh I’m playing football. That’s one good thing that’s going on uh during that time and I get m moved up to varsity my sophomore years so right away I’m hanging out with an older crowd, uh, and going to parties, um, dating girls, um, you know, getting a lot of attention and I’m liking that, you know, it’s just parties Girls being punks and um playing football and it’s it it’s a good feeling. I feel like I’m a part of something there. Um but still there’s that there is that guilt from What I I knew of the church early on, it’s that you know you’re you’re not living right and you’re not doing things the right. way and so there’s still that feeling of God may zap you at at some point.
Mike: So you you almost carrying that guilt. Like you could you could feel that at at that age. There’s a tension there.
Chris: I’m feeling that there’s you know, just from what we practiced early on, you know, with that church to you know, this is m you’re having too much fun here.
Mike: Like there’s some law you’re breaking or something like that. Like so okay, you were feeling Some type of tension.
Chris: Exactly. Okay. And so, you know, I I feel like there’s something missing. Um fortunately, uh do have a locker next to a guy named Shane Christopher and He um he he’s just he’s different. He everybody likes Shane. Um he uh carries himself really well. He he doesn’t say um you know he’s not the life of the party, but he um when he talks people listen and He keeps asking me, do you want to go to this thing called student adventure? Do you want to be part of this Bible study? Do you want to learn more about uh the Bible and he’s pretty outspoken about that and he does it in a a a friendly way, not an obnoxious way. And then finally I just say, Yeah, I do. I wanna I wanna learn more about that. And so I go and I join them on a Sunday night for a Bible study And I do that for several weeks and the gospel’s laid out for me by a guy named uh Barry Bolin who just invests in the lives of students and he shares That you know, there is a throne of your heart and either you’re on it or uh Jesus sits on that. And that description, that picture just stuck with me so well and I said right there, you know, I know that I’m trying to sit on that throne in my heart and it’s not it’s not working. And so I accept Jesus into my heart at a Bible study on a Sunday night. How how old were you when this happened? I was seventeen. Okay. Yeah. This was after some wild years of uh partying, um, you know, uh getting into some trouble. Um, you know, there’s the one fight that I remember that I got into at a party with several guys and, you know, my friends were there and they they kind of came to my rescue there too and Uh, you know, just things that just were they felt like Denver and felt like I was going that way again and getting mean And um God pulled me back. He he made sure that Shane was right there next to me uh in that locker room and that I had that invite and that I got to hear about Jesus and that was a great thing.
Mike: It’s crazy that we were both invited, you know, later in life. Like me from a girl and you from Shane. I mean and but like not everyone makes the invites. You know, I I struggle with those uh always inviting someone to church. I don’t always do it every single time. But you know, it makes me think, what if Shane didn’t bring that up to you Or what if that girl didn’t invite me, like and we had baggage. You know, we had we had that sin up to that point. You were seventeen, I was uh low twenties, I I don’t remember, but Uh wow, what a what a powerful what a power how much an invite actually matters.
Chris: Yeah, an invite makes all the difference. Yeah. Wow.
Mike: And I could have easily said no and I’ve sort of, you know, continued to brush him off and still, I mean, so so Shane invites you, Barry Bolin, is his name. helps kinda teach you the gospel or at least you hear it and and he’s he’s pouring it in his students. So then your life I mean so so what happens you dramatically overnight change and Or or what what happens from there?
Chris: Seventeen and not even close, bud. There’s this tension going back and forth. Because uh there’s no uh real discipling after that. I still don’t want to touch a church. I don’t want to go um be part of anything. Um and so you know, I do have this new relationship with Christ and I do have a Bible and um but the there’s there’s still time where I’m I’m waffling between. uh, you know, m staying with old friends and, you know, a new bunch of friends that live differently and um Yeah, I I still have some trust issues there too. And I’m I’m people pleasing and uh just trying to play both sides and you know um Trying not to cause uh too many problems for myself there. So but no, no no overnight change at all.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah, so No discipleship there. I mean that’s funny, I’m hearing this uh you know, fresh. Uh it’s not it’s you know, just for so people know we’re not like rehearsing and and scripting out these These episodes is real life, uh real conversation on the first the first round. Um yeah, ’cause I had that lack of discipleship too, and it was it was I was kinda s you know, describing it as hanging a hell on earth at first ’cause I d I think I did also want to play both sets. Well I didn’t know. I didn’t know what was sinned. Sure. I mean how do you know? I mean, how did how would you have known even at seventeen, like what changes you might have to make in your life? Like how do you know? Yeah.
Chris: Otherwise. I really didn’t and so kind of figured it out the hard way there. Wow. So how long how long did that go for?
Mike: You know, like no discipleship? Was it Years.
Chris: I would say. Yeah, it would be years because I would go on and graduate there. I um you know, I d didn’t really have a plan for um you know, college or or have any particular degree that I was going to pursue. Okay. I just knew that the next step was going to college and um I planned on going to uh CU in Boulder, you know, Colorado University and or University of Colorado and um I chose Arizona instead because I knew Colorado and had visited there before and I really was looking for something new and fresh that I hadn’t seen before and um Uh Tucson was it. I wanted to be adventurous. It was during a time where I was doing some adventurous things like skydiving, um you know, mountain biking, rock climbing, all those things were important to me at that time and Tucson just
Mike: Is Tucson like a hotspot for that?
Chris: Yeah, the Mount Lemmon there in Tucson, you can do all those things and um you know places nearby you can go skydiving and uh but rock climbing. mountain biking, all that was right there and it was, you know, the relatively close to campus. And so um the friends that I met there, that’s what they like to do too. And so it was the perfect place for a while and then um just uh as I got it more into um you know college lifestyle there, I that’s where the tension really ratcheted up because I was being offered things like drugs and being offered Uh, you know, there there were girls that were interested in me and um that’s where I feel like the Holy Spirit was beginning to really work inside of me and say, okay, this is not for you. And you’re not going to graduate from here and you’re not going to wow uh spend a lot of time here. In fact, uh it’s probably better for you to go back to Texas and so that’s what I did. Wow. I was there for a full semester. Okay. Yeah. So you were only there for a semester. Okay. It was. And it it happened pretty quick. There was a lot that happened within a semester, twenty-five. You know, tell me that, you know, even though there’s some nice people that I’m meeting here, um uh it it wasn’t it?
Mike: It’s different.
Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Mike: So one semester only. Back to Texas.
Chris: I was planning on going to Texas A&M.
Mike: Okay. But you said was planning, so that means you didn’t land there.
Chris: Yeah. I didn’t land there. I was taking classes and on the AM campus there. at Blinn because you couldn’t transfer right in. At that point I didn’t have enough uh hours there to transfer in and so uh I was planning on going there, taking classes there uh in college station and I drove uh past Waco, uh or into Waco to see some friends of mine from high school. Oh, you said Waco, here we go. Yeah. And I I loved it. I fell in love with um Baylor and I took some classes there with some friends, you know, just joined them in their classes the next day, you know, I was staying overnight and I was like, I need I need to be here. Yeah. And wow Yeah, definitely felt led to change my decision there and go to Baylor and that’s what I did.
Mike: Baylor people, not Texas A&M for all of you. Aggie, people are really passionate about their colleges. They really are, especially here in Texas. Yeah, like even when they’re like forty or fifty years old, like I mean, they get mad if you talk about another college. It’s like Al Bundy living his high school days, you know, four touchdowns in one game. Over and over again.
Chris: Yeah, nice married with children reference.
Mike: Thank you. Thank you very much. No crickets for that one. But no, but for real. Have you noticed like so my college was all over the place, but people get I mean, I feel like over the top about it’s college people.
Chris: Yeah. I don’t see that slowing down anyway.
Mike: Yeah, no, I guess not. Okay, fine. Okay. So Baylor, so half the room is gonna be excited about Baylor, you just said that. The other half you may have just lost some Let’s hope they’re still listening. Yeah. So you’re at Baylor. Here we go.
Chris: Uh again, great great place. Um a different kind of peer pressure, I would say, there uh at Arizona. They’re You know, the pressure was more if you’re not doing something bad than what’s wrong with you. If you’re not smoking this or going to this place then uh you know you’re you got something that might be wrong with you. What is it? Uh Baylor is more the peer pressure to um do good, to not mess up to to have faith. Um And uh that was it was refreshing.
Mike: Um that uh sounds like the opposite.
Chris: It did. There yeah. You know, that that’s where I met a lot of uh friends there that I’m still friends with today that are, you know, walking in faith and and doing so really well. Uh went to church for the first time in a long time there. Uh Calvary Baptist Church, uh there in Waco and was baptized there. Uh But still no discipleship. There was n not um any kind of formal uh you know, this is how you you do discipleship. Um type of training or uh anything that was leading me to think, okay, well, you need to take that step.
Mike: I was gonna ask you, why do you think that’s lacking? Do you think that’s lack of people doing that with you, or are you just not even knowing Both. What the relevance is a little bit of both.
Chris: I would say the both. I wasn’t seeking it out nor was uh nor was I seeing an option to do that. Okay. But uh yeah, yeah. So that that’s what you know, college in a nutshell is basically trying to get a little bit more familiar with my faith by doing the things that I saw other people doing that were also um walking in faith. Yeah. Um Just trying things on for the first time, it felt like Oh yeah.
Mike: That’s quite the journey for seven or eight years of you know, kid in north of Denver, dramatically different in Carrollton. to to then uh being invited back or be invited to church, you know, from a cult experience in your past. to then going to Arizona back over to Baylor. Like the the pendulum swings of one extreme to the other is like a theme here, I feel like.
Chris: It is. I just uh I really have no sense of what life is supposed to look like.
Mike: You’re swinging for the fences over and I tell you what, it it really does feel like trying things on and uh Wow
Chris: There’s just no particular rhyme or reason other than um you know, I I just uh I know what the common themes are there throughout all that is that there’s just no real direction in the lack of discipleship there or or me not seeking it out. You know, I’m I’m just looking and trying to grab at things here to to find that next step.
Mike: Um so I like so what are you gonna say d did you go from bailored into like to Rhode Island or another country, I feel like you’re gonna about to have another extreme shift.
Chris: No, in fact it’s uh it’s not extreme at all, you know. Um
Mike: Does it start stabilizing from here a little bit?
Chris: In a way. I’m back in Dallas Fort Worth. I get a job. My degree there at Baylor is management information systems. And it does and I’m glad it does because there was some money that came along with that and I just I didn’t want to be poor um Mike. I didn’t want I I wanted to uh make a pretty decent salary and yeah, you know, uh while finishing up at Baylor and you know Or getting close to, you know, my final years of Baylor. Um, I changed my major from marketing to management information systems because that’s what I heard you should do if you want a good job out of college and so. Um and I’m the funny thing is I’m not the most technically uh oriented, you know. I’m I’m definitely not like you, you know, you’re
Mike: I don’t think I’m management information systems material though.
Chris: I do like tech. I can’t say that I really like tech, but
Mike: Yeah, but you wanted a big you wanted a some security, job, money. I mean that makes sense from your upbringing, right? That was all not there. Yeah. So yeah, that totally makes sense.
Chris: I wanted to fill that gap and make sure that was filled. And that’s what I pursued. Okay Um so I’m living in Dallas and I’m going to a Bible study um in Dallas called Metro. It’s led by Tommy Nelson at the time. It’s at uh the old Prestonwood Baptist Church and you know a lot of singles are there. Um And by God’s grace, that’s where I meet my wife Jessica. And there’s more that we can talk about uh in that regard. We’ll we’ll touch on marriage and our families and our kids and You know, we’ve been married for twenty-five years, we have a twelve year old daughter named Clara. After battling infertility Um but th th I think that’s for another day because there’s a lot that we can talk about there and I know there’s a lot that you’re gonna want to talk about.
Mike: Well I I said the same thing to Joel from from last week. I mean we are gonna have a separate we’re we’d totally have to have other episodes. There’s not enough time.
Chris: We’re not trying to gloss over.
Mike: No, we’re not glossing. In fact you probably could if you could see video you would probably see tears in welling up so it’s like, oh let’s save this because we don’t have five hours for this right now. So we obviously love our wives and our families and uh we’ll just save that for an extended edition there’s plenty. So married. Oh I’m sorry. Yeah.
Chris: So so you how to Yeah, I w I we meet, we we date, we get married, and then uh we move. How long did you date? We were dating for gosh, it was I would say yeah. Before we got engaged, it was about seven months. So we did not have a long dating period. So After marriage, we you know, we were living in uptown, um just down there uh by downtown by where the American Airline Center is being built. And uh uh for One reason or another we decide we’re going to move to Flower Mound and so that’s where we’ve Why did you choose Flower Mound?
Mike: What what what makes you what takes someone from Uptown to Flower Mound? Besides like it almost rhymes. Like why From up to how why are you picking like that that seems random. Like wh why why Flower Mount?
Chris: It had an affordable house that we liked.
Mike: So you’re looking for you’re looking for housing We’re looking for a house.
Chris: We find a house there and now we’re in the suburbs and we’re needing a church. We were going to Park Cities, um, Baptist down when we lived in Uptown and now we’re on the hunt for a new church and so somehow we stumble across this little church in a dairy farmer’s building called one twenty one and uh like how you talked about your experience of you know, if I walk in I see, you know, some folding chairs with ten people I’m I’m walking out. We had no idea what to expect walking into that building either, but Oh once you’re in, I mean looks can be deceiving.
Mike: Uh what do you mean by dairy farmers? It’s like it’s on a farm or what do you what does that mean?
Chris: No, it’s actually the office building uh it says dairy farmers on it. Okay.
Mike: It just had the name dairy. It had the name or the dairy yeah.
Chris: Dairy farmers.
Mike: Okay. So I always thought of it as The dairy farmers building. North Denver, all the way trajectory of your life to the the dairy farmers of the world.
Chris: That’s where we’re at right now. Okay.
Mike: Yeah.
Chris: And so we walk in and um, you know, uh start talking to a guy who’s sitting on the first row and we’re talking about sports and then I see him walk up to the stage and I I hope I didn’t say anything that was you know That he’s not gonna like because he’s preaching the sermon right now and uh like you hope you didn’t cuss or tell ’em oh Starkis sins.
Mike: Exactly. Do you say that when you first meet someone you just go straight into Pyty mouth and deep circus sins?
Chris: Uh I can’t remember ever doing that. Okay. Hopefully. You were so nervous.
Mike: I don’t know what you told him. I’m just curious, you know, what you whatever you talk to this guy about.
Chris: We’re talking about sports. Okay. We’re talking about sports. But All that to say, we liked the uh we liked the preaching, we liked the music, and we felt like we could um go back. It’s awesome.
Mike: We did, and we continued going back and Um can I ask you a question on that really quick? So when you were there, so it’s hard for me to think you have this cultish experience. You have Shane invite you, you know, to church and it’s like a youth. You know, you’re seventeen, you know. Now you’re older, you’re married. Um You go to this church and you just said you like the preaching and the music. Like, are you just now viewing, oh, church is normal and this is what I should do? Like, were there any other Hang ups on that. I feel like that’d be hard for me to all of a sudden be like, Oh, okay, I c I could be here. Was it just that good? Or like what h you know, how how did you reconcile that with your past? Church experience. It was different.
Chris: It was uh it felt real. Um it didn’t feel like everybody was putting on their Sunday best.
Mike: Gotcha.
Chris: Uh and it felt like that before. It had felt like that before.
Mike: Felt like fakers before, like just fake Christian whatever. Just people opposing and I didn’t feel like I I
Chris: could be known or that I could get to know anybody really well. And you know, and whether or not that’s true, I don’t know. Uh you know, there’s There’s uh you know, ways to get to know people if you get the effort or if you you know if you try. Yeah.
Mike: But for you, that’s how it felt. If it felt real, you actually could That’s the perfect word for it. It wasn’t like it was before. It was nothing like we had before.
Chris: Okay. And it was small enough to feel like you’re part of something that’s awesome. Um and that’s where I r you I I would say that I had faith. Um here I actually see how faith and works are actually uh playing out together because there were always opportunities to serve Um, I would learn more about missions and you know, whether local or or world mission. Um it’s just part of the DNA. And then, you know, with with serving that would just lend into, you know, a different career choice as I you move from IT into nonprofit work. uh had a chance to uh work with a ministry that helped w single mothers and you know that Wow Yeah, isn’t that just so appropriate here to have a heartbeat for that, I would assume. Exactly. That really helped uh, you know, uh to shed some light on Again, how I grew up and uh you know understand that more and more and uh you know, kinda even heal through that a bit, but
Mike: Um so how how IT a nonprofit? You just were tired of IT after years of doing it or or why
Chris: Yeah, I I just didn’t really feel like you know I was going to move forward in my career there. So um you know, getting into nonprofit that seemed to match the heartbeat there too of what I was Learning at 121 and where I felt like I could be the most help. And um you know, fortunately I had a chance to do that in a couple of different organizations and then uh right around the time that COVID hit, uh pretty close to that um for f some financial reasons there with the organization that I was at. Um I uh was let go. Uh some leadership was let go there too for financial reasons and um I found myself in digital marketing. Yeah. um, you know, over the course of the different things that I’ve done uh workwise and just how I’m naturally wired uh marketing You know, back that old major that I decided to turn my head on and go toward IT. Uh but I just had a knack for it and Um God allowed me back in it at a time to where it was really needed and uh I’ve been a consultant since then and just have really enjoyed it and I felt like I’ve been able to uh do some really neat things inside of that world. And so that’s where I’m at now. But yeah. That’s uh that that’s m that’s me. That’s me not being quite there.
Mike: No, no, no. And thank you for sharing it. It’s it’s hard to I feel like it’s hard to do this, you know, and to hear I I never picked up until you were mm talking just now the themes of going from one extreme to another. and you not having that modeled ahead of you, you know, discipleship or fatherhood or or any of that. And then just from the years we’ve known each other, I mean the type of man you are today. I mean it’s it’s incredible what the Lord has done through your life and the way you serve your wife and your daughter and disciple others and because you’re so you’re so faithful with that. And it’s it’s always it’s always awesome for me to get to see or for any of us to get to see like That wasn’t part of your DNA. Like in fact it was the o in fact it wasn’t even just a part, it was like anti. It was the opposite And then look how Jesus has redeemed that and then just made you who you are today, which is just incredible. Like that’s just what else can explain something? like that. You know, if you’re sharing the story with someone, I mean I get weird things can happen to people. But at the end of the day, like what can explain such a change in someone’s life and trajectory Because you were headed in a completely different pathway.
Chris: Only the grace of God. Wow. And and yeah, thank you for your comments there. I really appreciate that. Yeah. Um, you know, and I I could see that now and it’s it’s really the kind of the epitome of what we’re doing here, right? I mean we Uh we both uh admit to not being quite there. Um I think we both see that vulnerability is the key to unlocking uh growth for us and um you know, uh doing this podcast here together, I think that’s something we’re we’re inviting people in, you know. And yeah, you’re right. The you know struggles of growing up without a father, a single parent home. rough neighborhood, dysfunction, lack of discipleship, even the unorthodox career path, all of those things I can point at and say, you know, God God had plans with that. Yeah.
Mike: You know, it’s uh I think it can make you really relatable with people too. ‘Cause you just understand different walks of life. And maybe that’s a little bit of both of us and and gosh, maybe even that is we have this whole not quite there thing. Maybe that’s why. It’s just we understand we’ve been all over the map, different places. I mean And like you just said, I mean, so now now, you know, people you know a little bit more about us. And it’s hard to share your story and I mean, Chris, you don’t even know I’m gonna ask this, but You know, we’d love to hear yours. And and we don’t know exactly, you know, the best way for you to do that. We we basically have a mailbag, you know, we have an email address. It’ll be in the show notes. Um it’s just info at notquitethshow dot com. So that’s a little bit of a mouthful on a domain, but the other domains weren’t available, so don’t judge us. But Um, we’ll put it in the show notes. I mean, we’d love to hear from you, whether it’s through a review or a comment on any of our platforms or just in the email address. Send us a little bit about yourself. Um, ask us questions. Um share even hard moments. I mean, like, like you’re I think you’re getting the the feel that we want to be as real as possible. Just I mean if we’re really believing what the Bible has to say about all of this, I mean, we don’t have time for games or fluff. No fluff. Or even like you said, an like the past church experience and I had a couple of those, like the just the fake Sunday bet. Like what is that? And that that’s not that’s not the gospel. That’s that’s not the God of the Bible. Um and and we’re not gonna do that here. So yeah, we’d love to hear from you on that.
Chris: Yeah, and we hope this encourages you too, because you know, w we both know what it feels like to be out there and um kind of feel stuck and without a roadmap. Um and if that’s you, you know I know that part of my issue is not asking uh or knowing what to ask or who to ask or how to ask, you know, when I needed help or or needed somebody to help guide me in uh finding out what that path needed to look like. So if that is you, uh, again, please, yeah, use that uh digital email bag. Let us know, and uh if anything else we can at least pray for you.
Mike: Well, you are now officially off the hot seat. How do you feel? A little lighter. I do feel a little bit lighter. A breath of refreshment because you did it, my friend. We are done with Story time. We’re gonna move forward towards some other topics, but really thank you thank you for sharing that and and being honest and I think think that was great. This solonoscopy was the best solonoscopy I’ve ever had.
Outro: Thanks so much for joining us. Please consider rating and reviewing our podcast and hitting subscribe on whichever platform you prefer. Remember to keep moving forward because we’re not quite there.
