How to Navigate the Valley of Fear and Disappointment
The guys talk about how we often find ourselves going through ups and downs in life, but how do we navigate things when we are down in the valley? They share examples of their own journeys through this and how to encourage someone and walk with others in the valley and out of the valley.
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How do you get through the valley of fear and disappointment? Mike Mobley and Chris Howard say it comes down to looking up: remembering that God is in control and you aren’t, letting Him define your worth, praising Him even when it hurts, and taking one slow step at a time with Jesus as your safety rope. With their church’s men’s retreat focused on facing fear, they unpack the quiet fears many of us carry, like inadequacy, irrelevance and missing God’s best, and how those fears grow when we wrestle God for control. They also share how they each experience the valley, Jeremy Camp’s story of worship through loss, and what Everest climbers teach about perseverance. Below: the key takeaways, the Scripture discussed, and the full episode transcript.
Fear Isn’t Always Being Afraid
When Chris describes the fears men face, such as a new job, not having the job you want, family situations or a child about to graduate, Mike realizes he carries more fear than he thought. It doesn’t look like being afraid of something. It looks like wondering if he is enough as a husband, father and man, and whether there is value in what he does. Chris pictures a Halloween yard full of gravestones that read “inadequacy” and “you’re wasting your life”: the fear of missing God’s best, of not making a difference, of growing older and feeling irrelevant.
When Fears Surface, and Why They Grow
Mike notices his fears rarely show up on busy, productive days. They appear in the lull, or when he hits a wall, and suddenly he feels ten of them at once. Chris connects this to his church’s study of James: when we drift from God’s Word and fill our heads with worldly wisdom (“time’s running out,” “grind harder”), we get ahead of God, grow angry when expectations aren’t met, and fall into a cycle of more fear. He has lived long enough to see that God can open or close any door in His timing.
A Trust and Control Issue
Mike admits the godly side of him agrees, while his flesh hates it, because fear often comes from trying to take the reins of something only God can make happen. Chris compares it to a roller coaster: once you’re on, you go where it takes you. We like to wrestle control away from God, but as Chris puts it, God is undefeated in wrestling matches. Even Jacob, who wrestled through the night, came away changed.
What Happens in the Valley
Everyone goes through valleys, so the question is what you will do there. Mike hears hopelessness from people in the valley: they stop serving, stop reading the Bible and wonder if God still wants to hear from them. Chris sees the focus shift to self and past pain, which can lead to depression, anger and isolation, “an island.” For Mike, the valley means looking down on himself and shrugging off help, until he finally gives up the reins and looks up. Joy, he says, isn’t being happy about everything. It is trust being restored.
Look Up: Praise, Worth and the Father’s Open Arms
Chris points to the song “Blessed Be Your Name”: we bless God’s name in the good and in the bad. Mike recalls Jeremy Camp raising his hands in worship through tears after losing his first wife. Practically, looking up means reminding yourself you aren’t in control, and hearing God say, “I see you as My son, and I’m well pleased.” Your worth comes from who He says you are, not your job or status. God invented both laughter and tears, and like a loving father, He opens His arms when we come to Him crying or mad. Sending His Son is the proof that He wants us.
One Foot in Front of the Other
Chris loves documentaries about climbing Everest. Climbers pass through valleys just to reach base camp, acclimatize slowly and depend on safety ropes. We can acclimatize to the valley and start calling it normal, but Jesus is our safety rope. Nobody runs up Everest; even the Sherpas move slowly. Keep your eyes up, take the next step, remind yourself who God is and who you are, and travel with others who will encourage you. And when we finally reach the summit with Him, we never have to come back down.
Scriptures From This Episode
Genesis 32:24 (“And Jacob was left alone. And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day”)
James 3:15 (“This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic”)
James 1:19 (“Let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger”)
Job 1:21 (“The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD”)
Matthew 3:17 (“This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased”)
Genesis 1:27 (“So God created man in his own image”)
Also referenced: the worship song “Blessed Be Your Name,” and God sending His Son as proof of His love.
Go deeper: Scripture on Fear · Contending With Fear · The Struggle With Anxiety is Real · Scripture on Trusting God · Your Identity In Christ · Roundtable Discussion: Retreat and Rest (LIVE From Gun Barrel City) · The Gift of Grief
Full Transcript, Not Quite There, Episode 61: How to Navigate the Valley of Fear and Disappointment
Mike: Is that like a Baby Creations song?
Chris: A Baby Creations song? “Let’s talk about Jacob wrestling the angel.”
Mike: “They’re gonna put me in the movies. They’re gonna make a big star out of me.” Next line… I don’t know, something something. “And all I have to do is act naturally.”
Chris: When you get your SAG card, you have to sing that to everybody.
Mike: Do you know where I know that from? And you’re going to totally judge. It probably shows our age or Texas or whatnot, but that’s not where I know it from.
Chris: Was it the Disney Channel?
Mike: It was on Disney, but I know it from the Remember the Titans movie. Do you know what scene I’m talking about?
Chris: No, which one?
Mike: So when they’re at training camp, the whole team. You don’t know what I’m talking about?
Chris: I do know what you’re talking about. I think it’s a different song.
Mike: No, no, no, it’s not. One of the players, they’re trying to get to know each other… Thank you very much, Mr. Judger. And he’s singing the song, and the guy’s like, “Does the term cruel and unusual punishment mean anything to you?” But he’s singing that song, trying to get him on the bandwagon.
Chris: Who’s that actor that’s singing that song?
Mike: It was actually one of his breakout movies, and then he got popular. What’s the name of that blonde actor?
Chris: Come on. It was the “Hey Girl” guy.
Mike: He’s in so many things. How are we not going to know this? Ryan Gosling. Oh, Ryan Gosling.
Chris: The Goose.
Mike: So that was one of his breakout roles.
Chris: It was.
Mike: Yes. He was like, “Come on, come on, just feel this.” See, you thought I didn’t know what I was talking about.
Chris: It was at lunch.
Mike: You’re like, I remember that scene. It was lunch.
Chris: It was. That’s a good movie.
Mike: What’s one of your favorite sports movies? You can’t say Rudy. You and I already both can’t say Rudy. Pick another one.
Chris: Okay. It’s Miracle. The 1980 United States hockey team that defeated the big juggernaut of the Soviet Union.
Mike: “Do you believe in miracles? Yes!” Oh yeah. Miracle’s good. It was great.
Chris: Mighty Ducks.
Mike: No, not a true story.
Chris: Oh, what? No, no, no.
Mike: Okay. Stop. It’s fiction.
Chris: What? I thought this was real.
Mike: It’s fiction. Let’s see. Rudy, of course. So if it’s fiction, I can’t say Angels in the Outfield or Rookie of the Year.
Chris: You can say it. It’s very realistic.
Mike: Probably not going to be on my list.
Chris: Oh, interesting. Okay. Let’s just go back to Braveheart and Gladiator.
Mike: They weren’t sports movies.
Chris: Well, Gladiator, that was kind of a sport of its day. Gladiating.
Mike: Not a sport for me, my friend. When guys gladiator each other.
Chris: They gladiator, and they Braveheart each other.
Mike: They Braveheart each other. We are a little rusty here in the NQT studios. We’ve had different scheduling things and some vacations. Welcome back. And I think at one point I was sick, although… You keep thinking I was sick.
Chris: I’m not sick at all. The last few weeks are a blur. We’re just glad to be back here. Glad to see you in that seat.
Mike: Yes. I’m in this seat.
Chris: That’s right. With your shoes.
Mike: They are on. They’re on. Some of us have pulled muscles, because we’re older.
Chris: How are you feeling over there?
Mike: Why are you going to say it’s mine? It’s a HIPAA situation. You could have been the one that pulled a muscle. Okay. Well, I pulled a muscle in my leg a few days ago. I don’t really know how to pronounce the area that it’s in, but it hurts. That’s a new one for me. Basically, if I lift my leg, it hurts.
Chris: You can’t really say what caused it?
Mike: I don’t know. I was just working out, man. I didn’t do anything weird. I’ve been told, if I start saying I don’t know where something came from… a wise man once told me that means I’m getting a little bit older.
Chris: That sounds like something really wise.
Mike: Yeah. We’re at that stage. Okay. Well, enough old man talk.
Chris: Oh, come on. The people love the old man talk.
Mike: So what’s been on your mind the last couple of weeks? We’ve been a little rusty. Here we are. We’ve talked a couple of things, a little bit of pre-show talk. We try not to do too much, so we keep it a little bit organic. But what’s been rolling around from conversations you’ve been having with people? And I’ll share some of mine too. Go. Three, two, one, go.
Chris: Right now? Okay.
Mike: I’ll stop.
Chris: So…
Mike: You want to… No, I’m listening.
Chris: We had the men’s retreat last year around this time, and we’re going to have it again this year. If you happen to miss that one, you can go back about a year in the podcast and listen to it. We had a great time.
Mike: We did that live on the spot. Gun Barrel City is in the title of that one. That was a year ago. Good memories. Good times.
Chris: A lot of fun. And we’re about to hit another men’s retreat, and you are going.
Mike: That’s right. Feeling strong. You’re not, apparently.
Chris: We do have a dinner that we’re attending. I’ll be there for that. But my wife is actually going to be out of town on a trip, so I will not be attending the men’s retreat.
Mike: I was looking for the sad sound effect. It’s been a while. We’re so rusty, I couldn’t see the board. I had to lean in, and then I missed it. I missed my moment. Okay. You know what? For the average person, because remember, not everyone listening is here in DFW. When you say men’s retreat, why does the local church even do a men’s retreat? What’s the point of a once-a-year time to get a bunch of guys together?
Chris: I think this one, the topic at least, is facing fear, overcoming fear in a biblical way.
Mike: No, I mean just, why bring a bunch of guys together once a year?
Chris: So that they can overcome fear and face fear.
Mike: Okay. That’s not what I mean. Come on. What’s the value? Because I get this question every year. Why do we do something like a men’s retreat, or why do women do a women’s retreat, or something like that?
Chris: Going down the road of life too long, you might drift. And this is meant to help you recenter and focus back on the things that are the most important. And the topic this time is centered around the fact that there’s a lot of fear that men are facing. A lot of us like to say, no, I don’t fear.
Mike: I’m a man. I’ve got no fear.
Chris: But I think everybody faces it to some degree or fashion, whether it’s trying something new, taking on a new job, not having the job that they want, family situations, or just a change in what’s going on in life, like a child getting ready to graduate, where we don’t know what’s going to happen. We can give in to fear, or thoughts like, can I handle this?
Mike: I wonder if you just drummed up a bunch of fear for different people listening. I could relate to most of those. And there’s something powerful when you see hundreds of people, a large group of people trying to take a step forward, trying to be there for each other. Because in our realistic day to day, we’re not around that many people, right? It’s maybe single digits during the week.
Chris: You’re the first person I saw today.
Mike: You’re the first human being I’ve seen all day. So to be around a bunch of people, there’s just something powerful, even if you sit back and just watch. It’s kind of like, okay, we’re in this together. The fear topic is interesting, because it’s probably a little bit of what we’re going to talk about. Sometimes I think people think of fear as being afraid of something. For some reason, in my head I’m like, well, I’m not afraid of something. But when you talk about fear that way, I’m like, oh dang. Okay. I actually have a lot more fear than I think. A lot of it is being inadequate. I don’t know, as a man, the drive I have: is it enough? Being a good enough husband, father, man. Am I worth it? Is there value there? For some reason, on paper, I wouldn’t call that fear. But when you talk about it, that is fear, right?
Chris: I think so. Yeah. This time of year, getting close to Halloween, you see all the homes decorated. You see “boo,” you see ghosts, you see witches, all sorts of things that are meant to cause fear if you’re a small child.
Mike: Or a man.
Chris: You might as well just put a gravestone out there that says “inadequacy,” or “you’re wasting your life,” or “you’re not doing what God has intended for you.”
Mike: Grown men running down the street screaming when they see that.
Chris: That’s the graveyard of intentions. I think I could set that up in my yard and scare a lot of the guys coming in.
Mike: Scare a lot of adults.
Chris: I think that’s what we’re talking about: those things that we’re concerned about that, when you boil it down, are fear. It’s fear of missing out on what God has for us, maybe His best. It’s fear of not making a difference in our family or in the lives of our friends. It could look a number of ways. And sure, there could be some fear of growing older, or of just feeling irrelevant. There are a lot of different manifestations of it, but all of those things wrapped into one is the reason why we need to talk about it.
Mike: What do you think? I don’t know if a lot of people sit around and just think about their fears, right? I’m trying to think of the times in my life when I’ve been more aware of them than others. It doesn’t seem to come through the hard-charging days or moments of productivity. I don’t even have time to really think about it. I’m just moving ahead. It seems to come more during the lull or the mundane, or maybe conversations like this that are a little more reflective. When I’ve hit a wall, or things have slowed down, or I’m going through some type of season like that, I seem to be really aware of them all of a sudden. Maybe they were there the whole time, but it feels like they didn’t reveal themselves until a certain season. And then I feel like I’ve got 10 of them on me.
Chris: Sure. Yeah. And not saying that you’re idle or I’m idle or anything like that, but if you do have that time, and we’re not really tapped into God and His truth, if we stray away from the Word, then certainly we can start filling our heads with other things, worldly wisdom. We’ve been going through the James study. That’s another thing that’s gone on over the past several weeks: our whole church is diving into the book of James. Very practical things about living. And one of the things it mentions is turning away from worldly wisdom. If we start filling our heads with worldly wisdom, it could be, okay, time’s running out, you’d better make a difference now, you’d better do this now. Sometimes we can get ahead of God, and if our expectations aren’t met, then we can get angry at God. And that could lead to even more fear, from not feeling tapped into what He would want for us and just going our own way.
Mike: Almost like a cycle, you’re saying.
Chris: Yeah, yeah.
Mike: Do you think about your own fears like that, often? Or does something happen to you that makes you think about them? We’re literally bringing it up right now and talking about it, so it’s making us think about it. But when we stop doing this podcast and you go home tonight, are you thinking about that tonight or tomorrow?
Chris: I’m sure on the drive home I’ll be thinking about things that I’d like to happen, things I’m hoping will happen, things I’m actively pursuing that I want to go well. And I think that’s where the fear will set in: well, what if this doesn’t happen? What next? If I go by worldly wisdom, it would be, well, you’d better have a backup plan, or you’d better get that figured out, or just work harder, grind harder. But I think I’ve lived enough years to understand that God can put a stop and a start on just about anything. In His will, there’s not going to be anything that prevents Him from opening up an opportunity for you in His right timing. And if you’re pursuing something and it’s not with godly intentions, He could put a stop to that no matter what you do, or how much you pursue it, or how good you are at pursuing it. He can definitely put an obstacle, or enough obstacles, in the way to prevent that from happening if it’s not His will.
Mike: So you have lived many years. I’m glad you put that out there. Many.
Chris: You would think I’m the one with the muscle injury right now.
Mike: Okay. You don’t need to bring that up. That’s a HIPAA violation. Thanks for that. Thanks for being here. So when you say that, that actually sounds like a trust thing. There’s a part of me, the godly side of me, that’s like, you’re right. The sinful side of me hates what you’re saying, because it really sounds like a trust and control thing. Essentially what you’re saying is, ultimately the Lord knows best. His timing is the best, His provision, His ways, how He wants to go about it, even His expectations, they’re all the best. He’ll open the door, but He’ll also close it if you’re not supposed to do it. And so it almost sounds like a trust and control issue, which is why I would even have the fear to begin with. Is that how you feel about it? Because you’re making me feel like I’m wanting to take over the reins. And so now enters the fear, because I’m trying to make something happen that, in reality, He’s the only one who’s going to make happen, because He’s in control and I’m not. Which part of that sounds right? And I believe biblically, yes, I will say biblically that is right. But my flesh is like, I don’t want to hear that.
Chris: Yeah. It’s part of what makes amusement park rides, the big ones, so fun: we are out of control. We’re not pressing the lever to make the thing go. Once we get on it, we have to go where that roller coaster takes us.
Mike: Right. You describe that as fun? I don’t like this.
Chris: You don’t like roller coasters?
Mike: No. They destroy my stomach. Do you not feel that, when you’re going down and your stomach feels like it’s flipping over your face?
Chris: Sounds like an age thing.
Mike: You’re like, this sounds like a little bit of a weight problem.
Chris: I did not say that.
Mike: Okay. You know what? It totally is age. When I was younger, it was perfectly fine. Now it hurts. Does it not hurt for you? It doesn’t hurt for Joelle.
Chris: They should rename the Texas Giant.
Mike: The Texas Giant also hurts, because you’re whipping your neck back and forth. It’s the old wood on there. I don’t even know how that structure is still alive. That’s a good point, though, on a roller coaster. You think that’s what’s appealing about it? Because you’re out of control?
Chris: You’re out of control for that amount of time, and you have to go where it takes you. And I think we like to wrestle that control away from God.
Mike: A hundred percent.
Chris: I think God is undefeated in wrestling matches. He top-ropes us every time.
Mike: Yeah. I was going to say, how’s that going? Do you think anyone’s ever won a single match?
Chris: Jacob wrestled the angel. Then the angel overcame him.
Mike: Is that a song? Is that an old-school church song?
Chris: No, it’s a YouTube thing.
Mike: Is that like a Baby Creations song?
Chris: A Baby Creations song? “Let’s talk about Jacob wrestling the angel.” I was thinking, is there a record out there called Baby Creations?
Mike: There’s like a little… you know what I’m talking about? A little baby… I’m never going to be able to describe it now. Just think little kids watching little baby videos. Okay. We’ve got to move forward. I can tell this is literally going to be 20 minutes of laughter and a side hustle about Baby Creations. We’ll talk about that later.
Chris: Stay tuned for Baby Creations, coming out.
Mike: Let’s go back. Okay. So let’s go to the practical, at least I would like to, and you tell me what you think about this. I think there are a lot of people, myself included, right? You go through these hills and valleys, and when you’re in the valley, it’s probably when you’re struggling the most or questioning the most. And for what we’re saying, if we’re really, really honest, we’re probably wrestling for control, and we’re not wanting to trust someone else and ultimately trust the Lord through anything. We might even be like, blah, blah, blah, you don’t even want to hear it. We’re both old enough by now to genuinely say we know life has hills and valleys.
Chris: It does.
Mike: You’re going to go through valleys. So it’s not a question of, will I ever go through that? It’s, when you go through that, what are you going to do? And you tell me, but when I talk to people who are in the valley, there’s a lot of feeling of hopelessness and devaluing. They’re just like, man, it’s not worth it. I don’t know how to get back in the game, whether I’m serving or leading. I haven’t opened my Bible in a long time. I haven’t prayed in a while. I don’t even know if God wants to listen to me anymore. I don’t even know if He’s even there. Like despair in the valley. So what do you do in the valley?
Chris: Yeah. I don’t know if I have a perfect answer for everybody.
Mike: We’re looking for the perfect answer.
Chris: Well, then here it comes. But the way that you described it, that’s how I see it too. I see a lot of focus on self. I see a lot of focus on what I bring to the table, or what I don’t bring to the table. I tend to look at things that have happened in the past and say, oh no, not that again. I don’t want to go through that again. I remember how that felt. That really stunk. I don’t want to do it. And so that focus tends to get off of God really quick in the valley, or it can, and that can lead to other things. We know that could lead to depression, or even mini depressions. It could lead to being angry. It can lead to feeling like you have nothing to offer, and so then you won’t offer things. You won’t volunteer for things. When somebody asks you to do things: no, I just don’t have it in me. So it can become an island pretty quickly. I know there are times in my life where it’s felt that way, where I’m like, okay, I’m on an island again. I need to get off this island. And there’s only one person who can remind me of my value and my worth, and that’s Christ. Getting there, being there, not fun. The only way out of it, I would say, is reestablishing your belief in who you are through the lens of Christ and what He did. And I know that can sound churchy. It can sound simplistic or even confusing. How do I do that, for the person who’s not a Christian, or even for people who are Christians who say, you know what, I do that, and I’m still down in the valley? I get it. But it is the only way to really navigate that and navigate it in a way that’s truthful, where you’re going to get truth coming back to you, where God’s going to remind you: no, you are valuable. You are more than this. If it’s a job situation, which a lot of times mine has been, it’s going to be: you’re more than this job that you’re seeking. If you’re not hearing back from somebody, that’s nothing about your value. It just means there’s maybe something else.
Mike: Sure. When you describe it, I visually get an image of two hills, and you’re in the center, you’re in the valley, down in between them. This is just how I see it, and how I’ve lived it out: when I’m in the valley and I’m not looking up, I’m essentially looking down on myself. And then I think it’s a free-for-all. All those things you described, I feel like I’ve experienced and felt every single one of them multiple times. I look down on myself. I’m not good enough. I do the same sins. You think about the past. I think about anything and everything that’s honestly not of God, whatever helps keep me looking down. My experience feels like weighty shoulders. If someone tries to talk to me, I’m kind of shrugging them off. It’s not working. And by now I’ve done this a lot, and typically I get upset that I’m in the valley again. So it’s like a self-fulfilling prophecy, a cycle where you just stay in there and stay in there. And it happens without fail. It’s almost a hundred percent success rate. It’s not until I finally give over the reins and look up, even just my head getting up to the horizon, that I might even start listening to a friend or someone. And they’re not necessarily pulling me out, but they’re helping me, and I’m looking up. I’m at least a little more willing to listen. And every time, without fail, it’s not until I look up that, for me, I see the Lord. And it’s not a happy feeling when you’re in the valley. Sometimes people hear “joy” and they go, oh, you’ve got to be happy about everything in life. No. And I’m going to tell you, biblically, that’s not accurate. And I’m sorry for you and me and anyone who’s been in the valley, because it really is painful. But then I look up, and it’s like my trust gets restored. The joy, when I say trust gets restored. As soon as I look up, it’s like immediately the Lord is pulling me up and out of the valley. But I have to look up. So my struggle is, I’m not looking up. My struggle is, what am I going to wrestle with, and how long is it going to be before I look up? Either I’m so desperate and so tired of trying myself that I just stop, and sometimes you’re lying there and you look up and you go, oh, this is not about me. So either I exhaust myself, or, I guess in an ideal world, I proactively look up. But until I look up, I honestly don’t know how you get out of the valley.
Chris: Yeah, I think each valley trip looks different, right? One of the songs that we’ve sung for years is “Blessed Be Your Name.” It talks about how You give and take away, and blessed be Your name when I’m in the good and when I’m in the bad. That takes away any excuse of, okay, things have to be good for me to be able to bless Your name, God. I’m also supposed to bless Your name when things are tough. And I think that’s where things in the valley tend to turn: when you can concentrate on praising God despite what’s going on around you. Being reminded of His good attributes, being reminded of how powerful He is, that He is beyond any situation you’re in and can bring you out of any situation, but also bring you through any situation. We’ve definitely known people, and we’ve gone through things too, where there have been some really deep valleys. People have gone through excruciating loss.
Mike: Oh, yeah.
Chris: Where it’s hard for them to praise. It’s hard for them to even think about God’s good attributes, because they’re faced with the daily change in life of, okay, this hurts, and it’s going to hurt for a while, and I don’t know when it’s not going to hurt. But I know I’m supposed to get to a place eventually where I can praise God again, because I know God is good. Right now I’m dealing with these emotions and these things that are just excruciating. That’s the hope there, right? That God is going to bring you through that, and He’s going to allow you to praise again and to lift His name up. And I think it’s okay to expect that He’s going to lift you up as a result.
Mike: Yeah. Have you ever heard the story of Jeremy Camp and his first wife?
Chris: Yes. I think they made a movie out of that too.
Mike: Oh, yeah. Maybe that’s how. For those of you who don’t know, he’s a popular worship leader who’s been around for a while, and he lost his first wife. One of the stories I remember him telling, I’m probably going to butcher it a little bit, but basically she passes away, and he was really faced with this idea of looking toward the Lord and praising Him, whether it’s a good day or a terrible day like losing your spouse. And it was something about him raising his hands. I think he was crying and praying and praising all at the same time. Not happy, again. He’s not happy about it. But I think he described it as experiencing a deep-seated joy in the Lord. And there are people out there who’ve lost their spouses, right? Or lost kids. But not every scenario has to be an actual loss of a person either, right? You described jobs. Jobs are huge. Men or women, we can wrap up our identity in it. It provides an income. A lot of people hate their jobs; the average person hates their job. So it could be between jobs. It could be whatever, fill in the blank. I think practically, when I say I look up toward the Lord, sometimes people go, what does that mean? You’re not really helping me. What are you actually saying? A couple of things come to mind, and I’d like to hear from you too on what that looks like practically. I will remind myself I’m actually not in control of my day to day. You and I might not finish this conversation before Jesus returns, or I could just have a heart attack.
Chris: Best podcast ever, except for the heart attack.
Mike: Except for the heart attack. Wow, you said that pretty quick.
Chris: Well, James is telling us to be quick to listen and slow to speak. I was not quick to listen and slow to speak.
Mike: As I saw your face, I’m like, as I die: greatest podcast ever. I know what you mean. I’m glad you’re here. Thank you. But I have to tell myself, okay, I’m not in control. Well, who is in control? Then, Jesus, You’re in control. Okay. That’s one way of looking up. God is saying, “Mike, when I look at you, I don’t look at whether you’re being an adequate husband or father. When I see you, I see you as My son, and I’m well pleased. Whether you do 30,000 things for Me today, or you sin over and over and over again, the fact that you’re looking at Me and even thinking about and turning toward Me… I just want you. You alone, as I created you, in My image.” That is even hard for me to say out loud, but it’s true. And so that’s another way of looking up and going, okay, my worth is not determined by what I do, or my role on this earth, my job, my status, or anything like that. It’s determined by who He says I am. And that right there is like, oh, the weight feels a little lighter. My head is starting to straighten up a lot more. I’m lifting my head. Those are just a couple of actual practical things I think about, and I have to choose to believe them or not, but it helps me raise my head, right? It helps you move forward, hopefully to get out of the valley.
Chris: Those are all practical things that I would agree with. It helps to remember that God invented laughter and the joy that goes along with laughter. He also invented tears. And sometimes our tears, and our prayers to Him through tears, are the sweet thing that He wants to hear from us, calling out for Him. We have to be okay with both. Because down in the valley, when you have that moment where you’re at a breaking point, or you have nothing else you can say or do, all you can do is just cry out to God and say, “Please, please help me.” He’s not going to fail at that.
Mike: I mean, whenever your daughter genuinely looks at you and comes to you, she can be crying, she can be mad, but I’m talking about a genuine opening up to you. What father goes, “How dare you come to me,” right? Or, “Don’t you know you need to clean yourself up before you come to me?” The father just opens his arms. I’m talking about a loving father, by the way, because I know many of us have experienced an unloving father. I’m talking about a loving father who would gladly, with joy, just take in their child, right? But we tend to look at God and we’re like, oh, I’m either mad at Him, or I don’t want to bother Him, or He doesn’t have time for me, or He’s busy doing other things.
Chris: He’s busy blessing somebody else.
Mike: Yes. No, He’s wanting you, He desires you. And we can look to Jesus to see just how much He actually desires you. Why in the world would He send His Son if that desire wasn’t there? That’s our literal evidence and proof that He’s totally there.
Chris: Do you like watching documentaries on mountain climbing, or anything like that?
Mike: I can’t recall a specific one where I’m like, yes, the documentary on wolves on Everest that I watched a year and a half ago on the Discovery Channel was great.
Chris: I enjoy it. In fact, I search them out. I love watching people try to labor up Everest.
Mike: Why?
Chris: I find it fascinating. And talk about a valley: they have to travel through valleys just to get to base camp at Everest, which would be a feat for many.
Mike: Are you ever going to climb Everest in your life?
Chris: I don’t think I’m going to, but I like watching people from the comfort of my home.
Mike: Like you’re eating a block of cheese?
Chris: Yeah, let’s get the block of cheese in there. Not a good Everest food, by the way.
Mike: In all seriousness, what is it about that you’re enjoying?
Chris: Well, you’re seeing people with a lofty goal trying to get to this pinnacle, knowing it’s going to be hard coming back down, but they’re still willing to put themselves through altitude sickness, possible brain trauma, physical trauma from frostbite, all of these things that they’re willing to face to get through it. There’s a lot of perseverance that goes along with it. But also seeing how they acclimatize to it before they even go up. They’re taking trips up the mountain just to get to a point where they can actually make the surge to the summit. It’s fascinating. I enjoy watching people try it. But it reminds me of the valleys that we get into, and how we can get really acclimatized to just staying in one place in the valley. And that’s it. We’re not willing to maybe take those steps with God, those harder steps. And I’m not saying we need to climb a mountain to do this or anything like that.
Mike: But we could stay. We could adjust. And before you know it, you’re long-term in the valley. You’re almost thinking it’s the new normal.
Chris: You’ve adjusted to it. And without the safety ropes, they really can’t do it, or else they’re risking a lot of danger. They’re falling off the mountain if they’re not on a safety rope. Jesus is our safety rope in the valley, or as we’re trying to get out and climb that mountain. So for the sake of analogies, I think it’s a good one: okay, when we’re in it, we’re going to keep putting one foot in front of the other. And when you watch this, you see they’re going at such a slow pace. Nobody’s running up Everest. Even the Sherpas are having a hard time, and they’re acclimatized to it year round. But putting one foot in front of the other and slowly, steadily getting higher and higher, I think that’s the way we can look at it while we’re down in there.
Mike: Yeah. That’s what comes to mind when I feel like I’m looking up: I’m very slowly coming out of the valley. And I tend to do well when I keep my eyes fixed up, when I’m looking toward that North Star, so to speak. It does seem like a really slow one step after another. And of course I could look back, but by the time I take a peek back, I’m pretty far up there. But I get really distracted if I look back. I just have to keep my head up. And I can feel in those moments, as soon as I start shrugging, or the weight starts hitting me, or I start looking down, it’s like, no, no, look up, look up. Don’t get distracted. Remind yourself of who God is. Maybe learn for the first time in your life who God is. And remind yourself who you are, even tell yourself who you are, versus what your mind or what others say about you. And I think before you know it, you’re out of the valley. Hopefully there’s not another one right on the other side, but you know what, if there is, and when the next valley does come, it’s okay.
Chris: And hopefully you’re traveling with some others on this trip, because sometimes you need a push or a prod, or somebody who’s encouraging you to keep going. You’re right. Jesus, God, is the summit, right? That is the goal: one day we’re going to be able to be with Him. We’ll be there. Of course, this program is titled Not Quite There.
Mike: Well…
Chris: Here’s the best thing about it: when you do get there, you don’t have to come back down the mountain. That’s sometimes the most dangerous part, because you’re tired. A lot of the accidents on Everest, the things that go wrong, happen when people are having to descend. We’re going up.
Mike: Yeah. Yeah. It’s good.
Chris: Keep putting one foot in front of the other.
Mike: You should send us out with the word “acclimatize,” since that’s your word of the day. How many can you work in? Two or three final thoughts and sentences here with “acclimatize.”
Chris: I think with your new injury, you’re going to acclimatize to where you’re not even feeling it.
Mike: Oh, here we are on medical HIPAA violations.
Chris: As you’re getting older, I think you’re going to acclimatize to the fact that you’re getting a little bit older.
Mike: Thank you for joining us on another…
Chris: When you’re eating a block of cheese, acclimatize to that cheese.
Mike: Thank you, everyone. Good day.
Outro: Thanks so much for joining us. Please consider rating and reviewing our podcast and hitting subscribe on whichever platform you prefer. Remember to keep moving forward, because we’re not quite there.
