A Convincing Case for Small Group Community with Vince Rice
Based on 30 years of leading and launching church small groups, Vince Rice joins Mike and Chris to discuss the importance of small group community, the challenges, and how to foster real relationships and growth.
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Why join a small group? Vince Rice, who has taught Sunday school and led and launched life groups for nearly 30 years, says small groups are where we see what real community looks like, and where we discover what God wants to do with us. He joins Mike Mobley and Chris Howard to explain how a small group is like a church in its own right, why healthy groups multiply instead of holding on, the tension of sending friends out, the normal messiness of group life, why today’s culture makes community more needed than ever, and why spiritual gifts are given for good works. Below: the key takeaways, the Scripture discussed, and the full episode transcript.
How Vince Started Teaching
Vince began teaching Sunday school almost 30 years ago, though he insists “God did it.” Over breakfast, a retiring church leader asked why he and his wife Sharon weren’t teaching, and Vince answered honestly that God hadn’t called him. A week later the same man came back with an invitation to co-teach young marrieds, and Vince knew it was God’s call. Henry Blackaby’s book The Power of the Call helped him see the call to teach as just as important as the call to pastor. Once petrified of speaking in groups, he sees his teaching as a spiritual gift, not a natural talent.
From Sunday School to Living Rooms
At 121, a local church in the DFW area, small groups meet in homes rather than classrooms. Vince found the shift natural, while Sharon took about a year to adjust. Mike admits his first visits to a small group in a stranger’s home felt stranger than a church building, because you can’t duck out. Vince’s early groups had ups and downs: one faded after a year, then combining it with a newlywed class kicked off a new season, and a few years later half the group left to start a new one, “which was exactly what we intended.”
A Small Group Is a Church
Drawing on his international travel, Vince sees small groups as churches. In places like India and China, a church is 15 or 20 people, and they multiply rather than growing large. Community is one reason for small groups, but not the only one. Part of community is enriching people and then releasing them to do what God wants them to do. When it was time to send a couple out to lead a new group, he asked everyone to pray on their own instead of huddling with friends: “We just want what God wants.”
The Tension of Letting Go
Leaving people you have bared your soul to is hard, and Vince says the tension often starts with the leader. Jesus cast the same vision: His disciples didn’t want Him to leave, but He told them that unless He went away, the Holy Spirit would not come, and that they would do greater works. Mike notes that we naturally drift inward. Chris adds that groups go stale when they get too comfortable. Vince says the normal messiness of group life, from quiet members to conflict to new babies and childcare, is part of real community. As Bonhoeffer put it, if everything is smooth, you don’t have real community.
Why Community Is More Needed Than Ever
Looking back over three decades, Vince sees people in America growing more selfish and more isolated, with social media treated as a substitute for relationships instead of a help. He sees culture shaping the church instead of the other way around, even though Paul said not to be conformed to this world. That makes real community all the more needed. He loves watching “the lights come on” when group members say, “These are not people I would have picked to hang out with, but they’re all awesome.” Mike remembers a taco bar in a California home as the first time he saw that kind of family.
What Does God Want You to Do?
Quoting Chuck Colson’s pet peeve, “people who have too small an idea of what God wants to do with them,” Vince says his goal is to help people discover what God wants them to do, and leaders will emerge. He calls himself a horrible talent scout: he gives people opportunities and sees what God does. Everyone knows Ephesians 2:8–9, but verse 10 says we were created for good works God prepared beforehand. Jesus didn’t just come to save us from our sins and stop there; we keep trusting Him with our money, our gifts and our calling. Like Moses, we have excuses, but the answer is to trust God and say yes.
Scriptures From This Episode
John 16:7 (“Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you”)
John 14:12 (“Whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do”)
Acts 8:1 (“And there arose on that day a great persecution against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered”)
Romans 12:2 (“Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind”)
Ephesians 2:8–10 (“For by grace you have been saved through faith… For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand”)
Exodus 4:13–14 (“Oh, my Lord, please send someone else.” Then the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses)
Also referenced: the stoning of Stephen, the lists of spiritual gifts in Paul’s letters, and Paul’s letters to Roman cities.
Go deeper: Why Community Is More Important Than You Think · How To Find Community With Others · Do You Have A Transparent Community? · Real Community Shows When There’s Trouble · Why Go To Church? · Scripture on Church · Hitchhiker’s Thumb, Bible, and Community with Jordan Hill
Full Transcript, Not Quite There, Episode 51: A Convincing Case for Small Group Community with Vince Rice
Vince: So again, the vision casting is, what does God want you to be? What does God want you to do? And God wants all of us to do something, right?
Chris: Hey, Mike, do you know what today is?
Mike: Let’s see, we’re recording. It’s Wednesday.
Chris: It’s Wednesday, but do you know what anniversary it is?
Mike: Is it the Stars anniversary?
Chris: No, we’re not talking about the Stars.
Mike: Oh, I don’t know.
Chris: We can talk about a star.
Mike: Just say what it is. We’re never going to get this.
Chris: The 25th anniversary of Tiger Woods and his big championship win. No, it wasn’t a big event? You don’t like Tiger Woods. You don’t like golf.
Mike: I really appreciate this.
Chris: Do you say “golf”? Like G-O-F-F?
Mike: Okay. Listen, we’ve been on this episode for 10 seconds.
Chris: Like “Bob golf.”
Mike: I like putt-putt golf. Okay. So Tiger Woods.
Chris: One more time. One more time.
Mike: It’s an anniversary. It’s like when you go play golf, you go to Topgolf.
Chris: I like to throw an L in there.
Mike: I’m saying it with an L. Golf. Topgolf. Topgolf. All right. All right. So Tiger Woods. Do you have any other anniversaries?
Chris: I do. In 2025, we did lose Brian Wilson from the Beach Boys recently. So those are your current events.
Mike: I did not know that.
Chris: Yeah. It was either today or yesterday.
Mike: Which Beach Boy was he? Was he the main guy, for real? I’m sorry, everyone. I don’t know the main people of the Beach Boys.
Chris: You lived on the West Coast. I’d figure the Beach Boys…
Mike: What’s your favorite Beach Boys song?
Chris: “Good Vibrations.”
Mike: Oh, not the headliner. Not Marky Mark. Come on.
Chris: So that’s actually really good. Actually, it’s “God Only Knows,” from their album…
Mike: Pet Sounds.
Chris: Oh, thank you. Yeah. Dropping a lot of knowledge there. I hope that’s accurate. What was yours?
Mike: You know, “California.” I will say it’s an interesting segue, because when you say Beach Boys, someone does come to mind for me. Typically someone who wears shorts, sometimes Hawaiian shirts, flip-flops…
Chris: An OG beach boy.
Mike: He probably is the actual OG beach boy, but he’s like an undiscovered OG beach boy.
Chris: You’d think he would probably know more about the Beach Boys than we ever would.
Mike: I think he might know more. Who do we have here in the studio?
Chris: We do have the OG, the original genuine, Vince Rice!
Mike: He appreciates the loud noises.
Chris: Also known as…
Mike: You’re feeling strong, my friend.
Chris: I bet he’s strong. He’s hopped up on iced tea. If we gave him a mafia name, it probably would be Vinny Iced Tea or something like that.
Mike: He probably knows that reference. Maybe he doesn’t. We’ll see. I think he just got it. Vince Rice is here. Vince.
Chris: Hello, Vincenzo.
Vince: The correct answer is “Sloop John B.”
Mike: “Sloop John B.” Is that your rapper name?
Vince: No, that’s the best Beach Boys song.
Mike: I thought you wanted to go by Sloop John B. “Sloop John B,” that’s your all-time favorite Beach Boys song.
Vince: Yes.
Mike: Did you recognize the “fa-la-la” right there?
Chris: Oh, come on.
Vince: Come on. I mean, there are a lot of fa-la-las.
Mike: Let’s give it to you one more time. This is a classic. Classic Christmas movie.
Vince: Christmas Vacation. Give me a hard one.
Mike: Oh, now he’s got to go looking. He’s not going to know this one.
Vince: We’re going to be here for days.
Mike: He won’t know that one. You should know that one right there. Do you know that one? How would you say that normally? “Get that corn out of my face.”
Chris: “Get that corn out of my face.” That’s what he’s saying there.
Mike: You don’t have that one? Chris knows that one. It’s one of your faves. Nacho Libre. You’ve probably never seen that.
Vince: I walked out on it. Well, Napoleon Dynamite, same thing. I endured all of Napoleon Dynamite. I chose not to endure all of Nacho Libre.
Mike: So you don’t have stretchy pants?
Vince: I do not have stretchy pants.
Mike: Okay. Chris is a big fan of the stretchy pants.
Chris: I’m wearing some right now.
Mike: With your shoes back off.
Chris: Wow. That’s a great look.
Mike: They were on for the last few weeks, and now they’re off. So, it’s getting hotter out there.
Chris: Let’s talk about the weather.
Mike: Vince, thank you for being here. Thank you for braving the NQT studios here today, with the bright lights in your face.
Vince: Very bright lights. Very bright.
Chris: You ready for the stage here?
Vince: Microphone 0.7 millimeters away.
Mike: It’s really close. We’re not recording video, but it’s basically in Vince’s mouth.
Vince: Really uncomfortable headphones.
Mike: Yeah. Really uncomfortable.
Vince: My wife asked me before I left, “Is this a video thing?” I said no. She said, “Because you’d have to change shirts.”
Mike: She looked you up and down. “Are you getting on video today?”
Vince: She thought my sarcasm shirt would not fit in with the subject.
Chris: Well, it fits in well here.
Mike: The National Sarcasm Society. What does that say? “Like we need your support.” See, that’s a good one.
Vince: I laughed when I was in the store. If I laugh, I have to buy it.
Mike: Yep. I like it. Well, now the audience, including your wife, knows the shirt you’re wearing. So we are sorry to Vince’s wife that we just revealed that. We’ll try to make him do better. So we’ve got a couple of questions here to throw at you. I want you to know before we do this, we take this very seriously.
Vince: Yes. I need you to understand everything.
Mike: And these questions go to every guest.
Chris: Every guest, every single guest. Nothing is modified.
Mike: Let’s tag team this. You go with number one.
Chris: Bossy. I’m going to go now. So here we go. All right. Sweet tea or unsweet tea?
Vince: Oh, unsweet. I’m sweet enough.
Mike: Wow. He’s very… Blue Bell Homemade or Dairy Queen?
Vince: See, that’s not even a thing. It’s Blue Bell.
Mike: Hey, just listen, we want to support you. If you were to say another answer, we’re here for you. Oh, you know what? I’m sorry, I’ve got to do this one. You get the last one. Just curious, have you ever taken photo headshots?
Vince: Just random questions.
Mike: All guests get these questions. Have you ever taken headshots?
Vince: Yes. I took one of yours, as a matter of fact.
Mike: You can say you took one of mine, but that’s not what the question is. Have you had them taken?
Vince: You asked if I’ve taken one. I have taken one.
Mike: Are there headshots of Vince Rice out there?
Vince: Well, it depends on where…
Mike: We know that means that’s a yes. And we have that on public record. Where are they? No one will ever know.
Chris: This is one for the public. They just want to know. How many pairs of jean shorts do you own?
Vince: Well, of jean shorts, I actually only own two.
Mike: Yeah. Come on, Chris.
Vince: I actually don’t wear very much denim.
Chris: Not much denim product.
Vince: Well, of the two that I have, one of them I’m safeguarding, because they’re Dockers and they’re pleated and they don’t make them anymore.
Mike: Wait, that’s not the denim one, though. Denim Dockers? Dockers was…
Vince: I rest my case. Well, no, Dockers is a brand.
Mike: I thought those were always khaki material.
Chris: Welcome. All right.
Mike: Hold on, wait, you’re guarding them? They’re in a frame on your wall?
Vince: No, no, I wear them, but I take really, really good care of them.
Mike: Because they’re the last ones ever. Like, “People, listen, no drinks by me, no food by me. This is serious. I’m wearing my Dockers.” Okay. Gotcha. All right. Very good. Same topic: how many Hawaiian shirts do you own?
Vince: Oh, I don’t know. Thirty.
Mike: A closet full. I envision you going to the closet, opening the door, and there’s just this row, and you’re like, which Hawaiian shirt am I going to wear?
Vince: When I walk into the closet, this side is Hawaiian shirts, and this side is t-shirts.
Chris: When you open that closet, does ukulele music play?
Vince: No.
Mike: The Beach Boys immediately come on over a speaker.
Vince: “Sloop John B.”
Mike: And then your shorts are at the end of the closet, behind lock and key.
Vince: They’re there in the middle.
Chris: Okay. Hanging? Is there a special light that shines on those?
Mike: Your shorts hang? Just so you can see them up high. Chris, do you hang your shorts?
Chris: I don’t hang my shorts.
Mike: I don’t think I know a lot of people who do.
Chris: Do you hang your shorts, Mike?
Mike: Nope. They go in a drawer, like a regular pair of shorts. No judgment here. Okay. Last question.
Chris: Heavy ice, regular ice or light ice?
Mike: It’s a big moment.
Vince: Well, it depends on the temperature of the drink when you put the ice in, but generally regular.
Mike: Right down the middle. Regular.
Vince: Generally. I would lean toward heavy, because at a lot of places the tea’s hot.
Mike: That’s true. Got to look out for the hot tea.
Vince: So the bottom line is, I like a lot of ice. If it’s cold enough, like at home, I just drink regular ice. But when I’m out, I typically will ask for a separate glass of ice.
Mike: Does hot tea make you sweat?
Vince: Oh, you mean like hot, hot tea?
Mike: Yeah. If I drink hot tea, I start sweating. Hot coffee too.
Vince: It’s interesting. I can do cold drinks in the winter, but I don’t do hot drinks hardly at all, period. If it gets really cold, like down to 10 or 15, I’ll have some.
Mike: Which we clearly get here in Texas all the time.
Vince: Well, the last few years.
Mike: Yeah, that’s true. Once or twice a year. Very good.
Chris: So do you ever have coffee in place of tea, or is it always tea?
Vince: Tea all the way. I have coffee occasionally, but Sharon drinks mostly regular coffee, and I drink decaf usually when I drink coffee. And so I’m too lazy to make it, when it really boils down to it.
Mike: Like you don’t want to push a button? Oh, okay. So you guys have to scoop it.
Vince: We’ll talk about that when I come back for finances.
Chris: That’s a good lead-in. You do a lot here around 121, the church that Mike and I go to.
Mike: And Vince.
Chris: And Vince. Yep. Well, why would he do a lot of things around here? We go to the same church.
Mike: You want to keep this part in, or do you want me to just cut that out?
Chris: I’m going to leave that in. I want them to feel they’re educated enough to realize.
Mike: I’m sorry. Please continue.
Vince: There might be people who don’t go to 121 who listen to y’all. I mean, it’s doubtful.
Mike: That’s true. So 121 is a local church in the DFW area.
Vince: At this point, I would say it’s doubtful that people who go to 121 listen to y’all.
Mike: Everyone’s left, actually, by now. Yeah.
Chris: They’re tired of this, and just a lot of questioning here. But anyway, you do a lot around here at 121, our local church, the church that we’re in. But you are known quite a bit for growing life groups and launching new life groups. So what got you started with that to begin with?
Mike: And maybe say what a life group is.
Chris: Well, what’s a life group? What’s a small group?
Vince: So yeah, let’s back up, because I actually started in Sunday school. I started teaching Sunday school at the church that we went to at the time, 30 years ago next year. And Sunday school is just small group, but it’s small group right after church on Sunday morning, and everybody goes. But it’s the same concept.
Chris: Where was it? Just curious.
Vince: Northwest Hills Baptist. What’s interesting is, the bottom line, and I know that this will sound like a Sunday school answer, but God did it. Our person who would be the combination of Eric and Joe was retiring, and he had breakfast with me before he retired. And he says, “Why aren’t you and Sharon teaching Sunday school?” And I said, “Well, God hasn’t called me to.” And he says, “Well, all right, I guess that’s a good reason.” The next week, literally the next week, he meets me at the bottom of the balcony, and he says, “Hey, Cheryl wants to start teaching a Sunday school class, and she wants to do it with a man.” Cheryl was our former pastor’s wife, and he had passed away about three years earlier. “She wants to teach some young marrieds, but she wants to do it with a man. And so I thought you’d be good at it.” And I’m like, didn’t we just talk about this?
Mike: It was seven days ago, man. We kind of made it clear.
Vince: It wasn’t even seven. We had it during the week, and then it was the following Sunday. But what’s even stranger is that when he asked, I knew that’s what would happen.
Mike: Wow.
Vince: Right. So that is how we got started. And then obviously when we came here, it was a very different setup. Number one, small groups are optional. And number two, they’re at people’s houses or at places or whatever. So it’s a very different dynamic, which I personally loved. You have a lot more opportunity to get people from outside the church if you’re not in the church when you’re meeting. But the question is, why do you do this? I read a book about six months after I started teaching called The Power of the Call by Henry Blackaby. It was really oriented toward pastors, but it made me view teaching as being one. In other words, the call to teach was no different than the call to pastor. Obviously a different level, but it was the same call. It’s just as important.
Mike: So around the time you did one of your first groups in a home or a public place, not at a church building or a classroom…
Vince: Yeah. It was at somebody’s house.
Mike: What was that experience like the first time, where you’re like, whoa, this is a lot more personal? Was it massively different? Did it feel the same? How’d that feel?
Vince: So this is interesting, right? You would get a completely different answer from Sharon. Sharon had a hard time with life groups for the first year or so because she grew up with Sunday school. I’ve been going to church since I was five; I grew up with Sunday school too, but for me it was an easy transition. It did not feel awkward. It just felt natural, really.
Mike: I just wonder, because before I ever went to a small group, which was later in life for me, it felt weird to think about going into someone’s home. That first visit or two, I was like, okay, I’m going into someone’s… I don’t even know who these people are, and I’m going into a home. That almost felt more weird to me than maybe a church building.
Vince: Maybe a church building. Yeah.
Mike: Because I could duck out of a church building, but I couldn’t quite escape a home in front of a smaller group. Just curious how that felt.
Vince: Sure. No, we had a Bible study when Sharon and I were in singles, before we got married. They had a weekly Bible study at a couple’s house; the couple worked in the singles department. They weren’t the main teachers, but they worked in there. And so we were used to being in somebody’s home every week, being in the Word anyway. And that’s all a life group is, right? And we were loose and goofy, and…
Mike: To those of you who can’t see, you seemed to point at us when you said goofy, like you were using us as an example.
Vince: Mostly you, but yeah.
Mike: That seems personal. Chris, do you remember the first time going to a home? Was that a little different?
Chris: Yeah. I grew up going to church, really, so everything feels a little bit different, but I was more used to the Sunday school type of format. You go there, you leave, you don’t get too messy. So, Vince, I imagine you’ve seen a lot of people trek in and through your home. Things all went smooth and nobody had any problems or anything. They just came, you taught, they were just fine, and then you sent them out…
Vince: And they got saved. They became missionaries.
Mike: Every single person.
Vince: Everybody is overseas now.
Chris: Fantastic. So can you just tell us what it was really like? How did it play out?
Vince: Well, again, it’s interesting, because the first one that we started kind of foundered after about a year. This person moved, and this person decided they weren’t really interested, and this person did this. And then we had two or three couples who were consistent. So it was like, okay, what should we be doing here? About the same time, we had a newlywed class that, for reasons that are not important for this discussion, was on their third teacher in a year, and that one was leaving. And I was talking to Ross one day, and he said, “Well, have you ever thought about combining them?” And I said no, it never even occurred to me. So Sharon and I talked about it a little while and said, all right, what the heck, let’s try this. And so we did. And that kicked off a whole new season. It was crazy. And then a couple of years later, we birthed a new group, and half of them left to go to the new group, which was exactly what we intended.
Mike: So when you say combined, you met a whole bunch of young married people.
Vince: Yeah, it was a bunch of very young marrieds. At the time, 121 was a much younger demographic than it is today. On a percentage basis, we were the old people then, and we were mid-forties.
Mike: So you had a whole new influx of people.
Vince: The newlyweds were 22, 23, really early twenties. And again, something we’ve observed over the last 20 years that we’ve been here: newlyweds today tend to be in their late twenties. They wait longer. But these were all very young kids. I think one of them had a kid. And then, of course, they multiplied like crazy.
Mike: But when you say “birthed out,” explain what you mean by that. Like the group separated?
Vince: So Charlie and Heather were part of our original group. I traveled occasionally for work, and I asked him to fill in for me once or twice, and he decided he liked it. So we kind of moved toward that, and when it was time, they left to start a new group, and we asked everybody in the group… By this time we probably had 20 couples.
Chris: You don’t have to travel very far in the halls of 121 to run into somebody who has been part of your group. There are a lot of fantastic couples, a lot of great people who have been part of a group in your home. It seems like they’d want to stay together. So, going back to the birthing question, what does it look like to challenge them to get outside of their togetherness?
Vince: Well, so for example…
Mike: Oh, bless you.
Vince: So for example, what we asked them to do that time, and again, we had 20 couples, was pray about it. Don’t talk to your friends. Don’t huddle in a group over in the corner and say, “Hey, where are you going? Okay, we’ll go there.” Don’t do that. Get alone with God and ask God, where does He want you to go? What does He want you to do? Does He want you to stay here? Does He want you to go with Charlie and Heather? Nobody cares. We just want what God wants, so we want you to seek what God wants. And you’re exactly correct. People don’t want to. I call it kind of a teeter-totter. This is the teeter-totter that we have in small groups. Why do we have small groups? Well, a reason we have small groups is for community. That is a reason, right? But it’s not the only reason. I talked about The Power of the Call earlier. One mental model that I’ve developed over however many years, and this comes especially from traveling internationally, is that I consider small groups a church, because in the rest of the world, they are a church. A church is 15 or 20 people. In India, in China, you get 15 or 20 people and they start a new church. They don’t grow to 40 or 50 people. They don’t want that. They want more leaders. They want more multiplication. So if you think of a small group as a church, then yes, we are to have community, but part of community is enriching people and then loosening them to go do what God wants them to do. And this is part of what we have to do as leaders: cast both of those visions, and not allow a group to go on for 10 years with the same people. Now, can a group go on for 10 years? Sure. This young married group, I think we had them for maybe eight years, but we went through three or four groups by the time we got done. That is part of pastoring: casting a vision for doing more than just being comfortable.
Mike: Yeah. Why do you think that’s such a tension? I would imagine one of the number one tensions is, “Hey, I’ve been honest with these friends in this small group. I’ve been doing life with them for the last year. And now you’re asking me to start over. Was all this just a waste? I’m supposed to do it all over again? I don’t want to do that again.” I feel like that’s a huge tension to expanding.
Vince: It is a huge tension, and what’s really interesting is that it’s a huge tension starting with the leader. I’ve watched this with other people. As we talk to potential leaders about this process and the tension and everything else, they get it. “Oh yes, I understand, I understand.” And then they get a group, and there’s no more tension, because they’ve resolved it. They’ve got their group and they’re happy. Right. And so, yes, it’s a huge tension, for exactly the reason that you state: okay, we’ve bared our souls, we’ve been in the Word, we’ve shared sins, we’ve shared grief, we’ve shared joy, we’ve done all of these things, and I don’t want to leave these people. So again, it’s a vision-casting thing. What did Jesus tell the disciples? The disciples didn’t want Him to go. What did Jesus say? Jesus said, if I don’t go away, then the Holy Spirit is not coming. And you’re going to do greater things than Me when that happens. So Jesus gave them the vision of, this is what’s going to happen. Now, remember, they were all still in Jerusalem before Stephen. I’m not saying God caused what happened to Stephen.
Mike: Sure.
Vince: Right. But He used it to do what He intended from the beginning, which was to get everybody out. And so there have been times in 30 years that I’ve left a group: “Y’all have to be on your own. I’m not doing this anymore. Y’all are capable.” So you just have to cast vision, and then either they get the vision or they don’t. And if they don’t, then it’s time for me to go do something else.
Mike: Sure. It’s such a tension. Chris, I’m sure you’ve come across it too. If a group doesn’t expand or doesn’t grow, people potentially don’t grow in their faith. The kingdom doesn’t expand. If the local church isn’t reaching other people, it just becomes inward. I think we naturally drift, at least I’ll speak for myself, toward going inward. Then I start caring about me and my family and my close friends, and I stop looking out. But Jesus seemed to always be surveying the people and looking out. So we’ve navigated that tension. You can still build relationships and be intentional and on mission at the same time. I feel like we think they’re at odds with each other, but there’s a way they can coexist. Chris, have you had to navigate that in small groups?
Chris: When I think about groups where it started to get a little bit stagnant, it was because we got too comfortable, or because we met at the same place all the time, did the same thing, same format. We just got used to it. It was part of our week, versus actually inviting people in. It became just what we liked doing and what we wanted to have. And so, not a lot of growth, I would say.
Mike: Maybe that’s a good marker, when we might be approaching a stale season. Might be time to change it up.
Chris: And then maybe you don’t see any additional leadership come on, or anybody really wanting to take that mantle, because maybe the leader, that’s just what they do. So there’s not a lot of challenge there. But over 30 years of seeing these groups grow, Vince, I’m sure there have been a lot of different challenges. What have you seen in those groups throughout the years that has challenged you in being able to lead them? Is it changes? Is it the people? You mentioned you had a lot of young people in the group; they’re growing older, facing different things. I’d like to hear from you on that.
Vince: Well, you have all the things, right? You have immaturity, which is not necessarily age-related. By that I mean mostly spiritual immaturity. Yes, there’s some emotional as well, but there’s a lot of spiritual immaturity.
Mike: He looked at me when he said that.
Chris: A lot of it is no big deal.
Mike: Yeah, that’s okay. You can roast me. Thanks for roasting me. Let’s continue.
Vince: You have all the normal stuff that you have in any small group. You have the person who won’t talk. You have the person who wants to talk all the time. You have tension between members, for whatever outside reason: “Oh, they shunned me,” or they did this or that or the other. You have all the things. And Bonhoeffer said that if you don’t have somebody like that in your group, you don’t have real community. If everything’s going smooth, you don’t have real community.
Mike: Yeah. You need…
Vince: I mean, the whole point is to reach people who aren’t all right. Right. That’s our goal. And then there are the challenges of going from no kids to a ton of kids. The group that we just handed over late last year, we started two and a half years prior, and it was a bunch of relatively newly married couples, zero to five years for the most part. There were a couple who were six or seven. No kids. Today there are, I think, seven. And so we watched them transition, and watched their commitment to small group change when they had kids, and the challenge of childcare within the group. How are we going to do this? There are 15 different ways you can solve that problem, but how are we going to solve it? And I told them before the first one was born, “Y’all can get trained, or you can train them, but someone’s getting trained, and you’re the adult, and you should choose which one.” And you watch marriage issues, which obviously over that length of time and with that number of people you’re going to have, and tragedies, et cetera. So it’s a little bit of everything. But again, that’s part of life. That’s why we’re supposed to be in community: so that there are people around us when those kinds of things happen, to sharpen us, to soften us, to make us go deeper, to challenge us to do all of those things.
Mike: Yeah. So it’s been over 30 years, which is pretty incredible.
Vince: Well, 29. Thirty next year, but yeah.
Mike: Well, then that’s not incredible yet. Next year it will be. But it’s been long enough now that you’re able to back up and have a pretty big view of the local church, in my opinion. And I’m curious, have there been any big shifts you’ve seen with people and the local church? Or is it kind of the same old, same old, just some new subject matter? Have you seen any big differences that excite you, or potentially warning signs?
Vince: Well, I think obviously, as we have gone along in this country, and let’s just preface this, this is here in America, which is not necessarily the experience in the rest of the world, we are more selfish today than we were 30 years ago. And we were more selfish then than we were 60 years ago. We have gradually grown more and more selfish. We’ve also, especially in the last 10 years, and COVID exacerbated it, grown more isolated. And I mean isolated from a community perspective. We’re all over social media, but we’ve treated that as a substitute instead of as a help.
Mike: Which is a cheap substitute.
Vince: Correct. And with relationships, we talked about how kids are waiting longer to get married. Adults are waiting longer to get married, waiting longer to have kids. A lot of them aren’t having kids who would have had kids 30 years ago. And all of that has invaded the church.
Mike: Do you think that selfishness, if we’re talking country-specific, is just our pride? “I’m the greatest. It’s all about me.” Why do you think that’s grown more significantly over the last 30-ish years?
Vince: Well, think about the messaging we’ve gotten, again, especially over the last 10. But if you read Scripture, especially some of Paul’s letters to some of those Roman cities, it’s the same kind of arrogance that they had. “Oh, hey, we’re Roman. We’re a Roman city. We’re citizens. We’re tough stuff.”
Chris: Right.
Vince: And we have a lot of that here, and it has permeated the church. We’ve allowed the culture to shape us instead of the other way around. Paul said, don’t be conformed to this world. Well, that’s precisely what we’ve done. Again, speaking in broad generalities.
Mike: I guess the good side of it, and I would imagine this is what motivates you, correct me if I’m wrong, is there’s even more need for real community, in light of everything you just said. We have to grow, and we have to actually build real relationships with each other.
Vince: Absolutely. And you can almost watch the lights come on in their eyes over time, as they’re in a group, and go, “Oh, wow.” In this last group, there were three times over the course of a year or so that different ones of them said, when we had a couple over at the house or whatever, “These are not people that I would have picked to hang out with, but they’re all awesome. We love being there on Wednesday night. But if we had just been left up to ourselves, we wouldn’t have done this.” And so they see what community can look like. And going back to your first question, that’s really my goal: to help them see what community can look like, and then go do it. I’m not interested in them learning what community can look like and then trying to hold on to this one. No. The point is, for all of y’all, even if you don’t lead, you now know what community looks like. So if you’re just a part of another group, and the community in that group doesn’t look like real community, you can help. You can say, “Hey, I’ve done this before, and this is what it should look like.”
Mike: I remember one of my first small groups. It was in a home in California, of all places.
Chris: That’s true. Thanks for bringing up Brian Wilson again.
Mike: I don’t know why it’s striking me as such a vivid memory. There was a taco bar in someone’s home, in the kitchen. Our family didn’t really eat together when I was growing up. If we did anything, it was on a TV tray occasionally in the living room. It wasn’t a thing. And I’m watching 15 different people walk this line, building their tacos, laughing, music playing. Something was striking me. I was a young single adult, and I thought, I think this is community. It was my first eye-opener to, okay, this isn’t just me hanging out with friends at a club or whatnot. This feels like a family, which now I would say is real, biblical community. It was such a pointed example for me. To your point, I wasn’t ever thinking about leading, but it made me go, okay, so if I do things like this with people, that’s what community is. It was such an eye-opener, but it took me months to even get used to it. We did mission trips together. We started doing stuff together. It’s like, oh, okay, you actually see people more than 10 minutes a week. You actually eat together. That was a shocking thought.
Chris: Well, what you’re describing there is the story for a lot of people. They don’t grow up with that time around the table with family, and they come from broken homes. But Vince, you are a community builder. You are a teacher. You’re responsible for a lot of life groups that have been started out of your own home into other strong groups. And so while it’s great to have Vince Rice and Sharon doing that, it’s also a little bit sad, in that there aren’t a lot of others we hear about doing that. When people talk about Vince and Sharon and their life group, you understand that it’s been something really good. And I’m sure there are others out there doing the same thing. But for those who don’t think they can do that, or don’t have an idea of what it takes to host life groups and then to grow them, what would you tell them? Because, as we were talking about a little bit earlier, there are a lot of challenges in it. It’s messy. A lot of it’s not fun. So what are the words you’d tell them, to encourage them?
Vince: Well, you start with this. I saw somebody interview Chuck Colson years ago, and the person interviewing him asked, “What’s one of your pet peeves? What really bugs you?” Colson stopped and thought for 15 to 20 seconds, and he said, “People who have too small an idea of what God wants to do with them.” By the time I saw that, I’d been teaching for eight or nine years, and that really put words to what I felt. That’s the goal. That’s what I do: help people see what God wants to do with them. And so the first thing you have to help people understand is that they can do anything that God wants them to do. They can do anything God wants them to do. The trick is, what does God want you to do? And one of the mistakes that we make in the church is that we want to grow more leaders, and we start focusing on growing leaders instead of growing people to figure out what God wants them to do. If we do that, leaders will fall out. Does that make sense?
Chris: It does. Makes a lot of sense.
Vince: And I’ve been guilty of that. But the thing I’ve learned, and I tell people this all the time, is that I am a horrible talent scout. When we started this last group, I didn’t look and go, oh, that person would make a good leader. What I’ve learned is you give people opportunities to do things, and then you see what God does. When I asked Charlie to lead the first time, it wasn’t because I thought Charlie was going to be an awesome life group leader. Nope. It was, “I’m going to be out of town. Hey, can you do this?”
Chris: It just happened to be.
Vince: A hundred percent. And by the way, he is one of the ones who has consistently done this as well. We did it a second time, and I think it was the third time he came to me and said, “I kind of liked this.” I said, “Okay, well, then we can make this happen.” But that wasn’t in my head. And so, again, the vision casting is, what does God want you to be? What does God want you to do? And God wants all of us to do something, right? Everybody knows Ephesians 2:8–9: “For by grace you have been saved through faith,” blah, blah, blah. But we always skip verse 10: “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand.” Beforehand, before when? Before you were born. He has things for you to do that He’s been waiting for you to do. Nobody else can do them, because they’re yours. And again, this is The Power of the Call. This is what I saw. That’s why, for me, being a life group leader is not a season. This is what I do. This is what God’s put me here for. Does that make sense?
Mike: So for the person who’s out there, I would imagine casting that vision for someone means getting them past however they’re feeling boxed in, or maybe how they’ve been raised. Maybe they’ve been told they don’t have any value, they don’t have any worth. And here you are saying God can do tremendous things with you. Getting over that hump, for someone to even believe you when you say something like that… What do you say to someone who could be listening and is like, “Okay, Vince, that sounds great. What do I do?”
Vince: Well, obviously this starts with being a believer. So the first step is, have you trusted Jesus? But that’s also the last step, because, have you trusted Jesus? A lot of us trust Jesus… I told a group at church very recently, “Jesus did not come to save you from your sins.” And I got these looks like…
Chris: What did he just say?
Vince: “Did he just say what I thought he said?”
Mike: You had a long pause, right?
Vince: I did. I took a long pause. And then I said, “Okay, nobody freak out. I left a word out intentionally. Jesus did not just come to save you from your sins.” The problem with thinking in terms of “Jesus came to save me from my sins” is that once my sins are forgiven, we’re done.
Mike: That’s a good point.
Vince: And we stop trusting. So again, with finances: are we trusting Jesus with our money? Are we trusting Jesus with the gift that He gave us, which is not the same thing as a talent? We’re born with talents, but spiritual gifts come when we become believers, and they’re given for us to do good works with.
Mike: Right.
Vince: And there are all different kinds. I believe there are more than are specifically listed in Scripture, because those lists are all different. Paul’s not listing every one that exists; he’s giving examples. But the point is that God gives all of us one, and we all have the same Holy Spirit. And this is part of being in the Word too, by the way. So the answer to your question, part of being in the Word together, is helping them see this in Scripture. I didn’t make this up. It’s been God’s plan from the beginning that we’re gifted, and we’re gifted to do things for Him, for His kingdom. That’s what we’re gifted for. This was not my job. I had a job. And I’ve told people for 25 years, work is what I do so that I can do the things that matter. Work is just work. Should you love work? Yes, you should love work. But if you don’t love work, okay, it’s work. This is the stuff that matters. And how do I do it? Well, we trust God. I’m not trying to minimize it, but that really is it. We trust God, and we seek God and say, “Hey, what do You have for me?” So I’ll go back to the very beginning of this conversation. Jack and I sat at that breakfast, and he said, “Hey, why aren’t you two teaching?” Somebody had asked me a year and a half before, and, things that we haven’t talked about here, but not really that important, I was petrified of talking in groups as an adult. That’s one of the ways I know that this is a spiritual gift and not a talent, because until Jesus, no, this was not happening. I was petrified. And so Jack’s saying, “Hey, why aren’t you doing this?” And I gave him a good answer, and it was in fact true: God had not called me to do that. But what did Jack do? Jack came back four days later and said, “Hey, Cheryl’s going to start teaching. I think you’d be great.” He didn’t pay any attention whatsoever. Now, I will tell you that Jack heard from God. Jack did what we all should do. He threw out the opportunity. But my part was hearing God when he said that, and not refusing because I’m scared, or because I don’t know anything, or because I haven’t been in BSF for 18 years, or memorized all of Romans, all of the excuses that we have. Look at Moses. And trust God. Let’s just go do this. And that’s the thing you have to instill in these people: you just trust God. What are you going to do? My daughters and family live on the other side of the world. Why? What are they doing? Well, they trusted God. That’s all it boils down to. That’s how we get there, and that’s how we ultimately gain as big a picture of what God wants to do with us as He has.
Mike: Which sounds oversimplified, but a lot of people probably ask that question without really building a relationship with Christ or spending time with God. So they’re like, “Well, I don’t know what to do.” And it’s like, well, you’re not listening. You’re not engaging. And not to harp on them, but if you weren’t even listening, you would have told Jack, “No, why are you asking? It’s been four days. Why are you asking me again?” So it’s a good call: are we even cultivating that relationship to begin with? It seems like the Charlies of the world, or other examples, are doing that, and then opportunities arise, and here we go. They feel an affirmation: yeah, I think that is something I’m supposed to be doing. Because they’re listening. It’s God speaking to them one way or the other, but they’re able to hear because they’re cultivating a relationship at the same time.
Vince: This is where being in the Word together matters. As both of y’all have said, there are a lot of people… and by the way, this last group all grew up in church, and they’d never studied the Bible like we studied the Bible. It was a foreign concept to them. But there are also a ton of people who haven’t grown up in the church and really don’t know what this looks like. So again, that’s part of our deal as leaders. We have all different levels of people in this group, and we have to bring them along. We can’t assume that they know X, Y and Z. But being in the Word together, you have the opportunity to show them these things being acted out in Scripture. I mentioned Moses. You go through Exodus and look at Moses. Moses didn’t want to do that. And you know what God did at the end? It says that God got angry and said, you’re doing it. Don’t make God get angry.
Mike: That’s a good quote. Say yes before then.
Vince: You have the opportunity to reinforce the vision from Scripture.
Chris: You’re right. That’s a good point too, that the equalizer here is that no matter what background you’re from, no matter what training you’ve had, you’re still required to trust God in this. There’s really no place to hide when it comes to this kind of call. And so in a way, Mike, I think Vince is teaching us here, or at least reminding us.
Mike: I think he’s teaching you. I mean, I’m not really…
Chris: I could loop you in, because I don’t want to stand out here on this island alone.
Mike: So are we officially taking Vince off the hot seat?
Chris: I think I hear some thunder.
Mike: You hear some sounds. It’s time for the lightning round. Vince knows about the lightning round. It is very loud in his ears. The question is, are you feeling strong right now?
Chris: You’re feeling strong, my friend.
Mike: He’s not going to answer. It’s possible you’ve heard some of these questions before. Is it possible you’re an avid listener? But listen, even if we repeat questions, people have different answers, which is why we ask the tough questions here on NQT.
Chris: This is the great equalizer as well.
Mike: These are the rules of the lightning round. You cannot overthink it. You have to answer very fast.
Chris: If you just destroyed the rules, why would you just prefer that? Wow. Okay.
Mike: Chris, why don’t you just take it? Just do the lightning round, man. Go ahead.
Chris: Great. You’re going to join in? Here we go. You can see any music artist in concert. Who do you pick?
Vince: Ashley Cleveland.
Mike: Wow. He’s prepared. East Coast or West Coast?
Vince: West.
Chris: Mountains or beach?
Vince: Both.
Chris: Both mountains…
Vince: That is an answer.
Mike: Is this the “or,” or mountains?
Vince: Do you know how “or” works? I can explain logic to you if you like.
Mike: 51%, 49%. Mountains or beach?
Vince: Both.
Mike: All right, we’ll move it on. Motorcycle or jet ski?
Vince: Both. Neither.
Chris: This might be a neither too. Greatest sports team ever assembled.
Vince: The ’95 Cowboys.
Mike: Ooh, I’m a fan of that one. Best pizza in DFW.
Vince: My wife’s.
Mike: Oh, geez. Experienced married man right there. Way to go.
Chris: There’s a reason why he’s teaching. Okay. I don’t think this is going to apply to you. Best coffee shop in town.
Vince: No idea.
Mike: Best place to get tea in town.
Chris: Best tea place in town.
Vince: McAlister’s.
Mike: Ooh, I knew that was coming. Dogs or cats?
Vince: Dogs. Thank you. There’s only one answer.
Chris: Frodo or Luke Skywalker?
Vince: Both.
Mike: What is this, man?
Vince: Well, first of all, do you know… A or B is true if both A and B are true. That’s just basic logic. But Frodo.
Mike: Okay. Running or lifting?
Vince: That would be neither. Nope. I’m out. I do walk. I walk fast, but I don’t run.
Mike: Wait, do you speed walk, like you’ve got the hips moving like in the Olympics?
Vince: I do not have their form, but I speed walk. I do 10 and a half, 11 miles.
Mike: You’re like, “Hey, I’m a great speed walker.” Do you wear flip-flops when you’re speed walking?
Vince: No, I do not.
Chris: Have you ever caught up to a runner while speed walking?
Vince: No, but I’ve had some runners afraid that I might.
Mike: Have you ever worn denim when you were speed walking?
Vince: No, no, no.
Mike: Okay, go.
Chris: Dry brisket or moist brisket?
Vince: Oh, moist.
Mike: Nice.
Chris: Who would say dry? Some people might.
Mike: You like burnt ends?
Chris: That’s a personal question.
Mike: Favorite comedian.
Vince: I would have to say Brian Regan, because he’s the only clean one I know who’s really funny.
Mike: He’s good. He’s really funny.
Vince: Well, that’s the key: you have to be a comedian. We’ve had a comedian here at church who was not…
Mike: I’m going to go ahead and just say this on record: Christian comedians are not comedians. Let’s move on to your question.
Chris: If you were a superhero, who would you be?
Vince: Oh, Batman.
Mike: Oh, yeah. Do you have a Batman voice?
Chris: No Batman voice.
Mike: You kind of just did it right there. All right. Last one. Ready for this? If someone were to narrate your life story, who would it be?
Vince: Absolutely no idea. You told me not to overthink it. I have no idea.
Chris: Can we choose somebody for you? Mike, who would it be?
Mike: Morgan Freeman.
Chris: “Launching and birthing life groups.”
Mike: There it is. Vince Rice is off the lightning round. Vince, thank you for spending time with these goofy, wild and crazy guys.
Chris: Glad to have you here.
Vince: Thanks for having me.
Mike: Here in the studio. I’m sorry, go ahead.
Chris: I’m just wondering if we can get into the National Sarcasm Society.
Mike: I think we’re all there.
Vince: I’ll make you honorary members.
Chris: How do we get that shirt?
Mike: So really and truly, when I think about 29 years, sorry, I was going to say 30 years, but I didn’t want to be inaccurate. When I think about that, I think it’s hard to continue to launch groups and send people out. It’s a challenge. But you and Sharon both, really Sharon more than you… it’s made me want to be a better Christian, and it’s been contagious for my obedience to intentionally love people. Of course be present, but be intentional at the same time. They can both coexist. And thank you, because it should be more common in the local church, and that’s our prayer, right? We all want that to be more common in the local church. But you’ve been doing that so faithfully, and you’re going to continue to do that faithfully, whether you’re wearing denim or not. It’s made a big difference here. I think it’s made a big difference in Dallas-Fort Worth, and who knows the difference it’s made around the world. We’ll find out on the other side of heaven. But thank you for everything you’ve been doing.
Chris: Are you tearing up?
Mike: No, it’s allergies. A lot of wind in this room.
Chris: Yeah. What Mike said, but double.
Mike: Wow.
Vince: It’s going to be like infinity squared.
Mike: Listen, okay. We’ve got to cut off the episode.
Chris: We can go play some golf and then go get some more tea.
Vince: I don’t like either one of you.
Chris: We love you.
Outro: Thanks so much for joining us. Please consider rating and reviewing our podcast and hitting subscribe on whichever platform you prefer. Remember to keep moving forward, because we’re not quite there.
