Hitchhiker’s Thumb, Bible, and Community | Jordan Hill
Chris and Mike interview Jordan Hill, LifeGroup Minister at 121 Community Church, about current struggles and successes going on within the local Church and how the Bible and Community often get overlooked.
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What do men need most to grow? Jordan Hill, men’s and life group minister at 121 Community Church, lands here: a man looks like Jesus, and the two resources men skip most are the simplest. Get into God’s Word for yourself, and invite a few friends into your life to dig into it with you. Jordan, a former college baseball coach, joins Mike Mobley and Chris Howard to talk about how identity, purpose, purity and time build on each other, finding your worth as a son before you do anything (Mark 1), the lone-wolf backlash among young men, doing versus being in time with God, using commentaries like a supplement instead of a substitute, and why people now want real humans over more content. Plus his Chili’s theory, a hitchhiker’s thumb and a lightning round. Below: the key takeaways, the Scripture discussed, and the full episode transcript.
A Coach Turned Men’s Minister
Jordan played college baseball, which paid for school, and went straight into collegiate coaching at the University of Central Arkansas and Dallas Baptist. Since 2018, he has led men’s ministry and life groups at 121 Community Church, focusing on men’s discipleship and helping husbands lead in couples’ groups. To him, it has felt like a coaching ministry all along. He also has a theory: Chili’s is the perfect five out of ten, so you can judge every other restaurant against it.
Identity Comes First, and a Man Looks Like Jesus
Chris asks how Jordan prioritizes identity, purity, purpose, time and community. Jordan says they build on each other. A strong identity shows you your purpose, your purpose guards your purity, and all of it reorients your time. Many voices online are telling men what a man is, including a backlash that says to grind, be aggressive and be a lone wolf. Jordan calls that a lie and says anger is a great motivator to start but will kill you in the end. In Mark 1, before Jesus began his public ministry, the Father said, “This is my Son, with whom I am well pleased.” Our value comes from being God’s sons, not from what we do. God made men driven, but also self-controlled.
Doing vs. Being With God
Spending time with God is an act of doing, but it should flow from being loved, not from checking a box. Mike’s kids sometimes come back from time with Jesus two minutes later and say, “Done.” Jordan says the best way to keep the balance is community, where friends can see whether you’re actually growing in joy and peace. Men also buy the lie that they can do it all. Jordan recently fasted from a favorite sports podcast for 30 days and found how many things had their hooks in him. The people who grow focus on one thing and do it over and over.
The Resources Men Aren’t Using
First, God’s Word itself. Commentaries and teachers are good, but they should be a supplement, not a substitute. Otherwise we can only repeat what John Piper said instead of asking what God is saying to us in John 15. An early mentor named Joey kept asking Jordan, “What do you think God wants you to do with that?” Second, other people. Bring a few friends into the Word and into your life, and humble yourself enough to ask, “Will you teach me?” Mike wonders if the enemy keeps us content with consuming content. Jordan’s picture: he knows a lot about comedian Nate Bargatze, but Nate doesn’t know him. Too many men know about Jesus without knowing him.
How to Start
Get connected to a local church instead of watching from the periphery. Ask a guy to meet up, and open the Word together. Start in Genesis and power through the confusing parts, or start with the Gospel of John, as Chris suggests, and ask, “What does this say about Jesus?” The best hitters hit all the time. Mike, who had rough church experiences before he became a Christian, says not to write off the church. Lots of guys are lonely and won’t say it, so if you’re an extrovert, look for the guy on the fringe and pull him in. That’s what Jesus did.
People Want Real Humans
Since COVID, Jordan sees people tired of everything being big and loud, and hungry for depth and authenticity. When he and his wife were new parents, they were overwhelmed by parenting content, so they stopped and asked a trusted woman in their church instead. With so many leaders on platforms falling, people want someone they can see and ask, “What did you do in this situation?” Even customer service shows the difference basic human care makes. Jordan is encouraged by a packed summer study in Isaiah, older believers pouring into younger ones, and thousands coming to Christ around the world. It’s getting darker in some ways, but brighter in many more.
Scriptures From This Episode
Mark 1:9–11 (Jesus’ baptism: “This is my Son, with whom I am well pleased”)
Also mentioned without a specific reference: John 15, the life of David (lover, warrior and king), a summer study in Isaiah, reading from Jude to Jeremiah, and starting in Genesis or the Gospel of John.
Go deeper: Mark: The Baptism of Jesus and Our Identity · Scripture on Identity · 8 Ways To Read The Bible · The Necessity of Discipleship · A Convincing Case for Small Group Community with Vince Rice · 5 Ways for Men to Lead Their Family
Full Transcript, Not Quite There, Episode 10: Hitchhiker’s Thumb, Bible, and Community | Jordan Hill
Mike: All right. Friends, family, countrymen, welcome back, as we say, yet again. Another week, Chris. Another day, another dollar.
Chris: Another day, another dollar. Mike, how are you feeling over there with your kidney stone, sir?
Mike: Kidney stone update: we don’t know yet. But thank you for asking. We’re going to find out some more tomorrow.
Chris: Is there a kidney stone test? Is there some doctor who specializes in just pulverizing a kidney stone?
Mike: Maybe. I haven’t met them yet, but we’ll figure it out. It could be a kidney stone. Or it could be what I’ve learned is a floating rib. It sounds like a hippie barbecue place.
Chris: Like a Chili’s baby back ribs thing. You want to sing it, don’t you?
Mike: We can sing it. No, no. We’ll avoid that. I might have a floating rib that’s causing some issues. It’s a rib all of us have. You have one right now.
Chris: Do you put a floating rib back?
Mike: Maybe it just needs a little adjustment. A good, swift rabbit punch to the back, and you’re good. I think there’s a doctor who can do that pretty cheap. But enough rib talk. How was your week? How are you feeling?
Chris: I’m feeling good. Good day so far. It’s a nice 109 degrees here in Texas. That’s what it felt like earlier. A little hot here in the Lone Star State. And I got a lot of feedback that “surmise” is not a word. How am I feeling about that? More affirmed that I don’t know a lot of words.
Mike: I was planning on helping you out, and why not do it here in front of all our friends? There might be another word. I’m here to help, since we’re all not quite there.
Chris: Were you about to send me into depression? What’s the word?
Mike: Did you mean to say “formative” versus “formidable”?
Chris: I’ve never said “formidable.” I have never said this word in front of you in our entire lives.
Mike: “Formidable years.”
Chris: Isn’t it “formidable years”?
Mike: I’m thinking it’s “formative.” Formative years.
Chris: When’s the last time I said “formidable”?
Mike: Last episode.
Chris: I did not. Are you serious?
Mike: I’m serious. You said “formidable.”
Chris: Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, you know what? Thank you for telling me, as a friend. I’m sure we’ll go back and look. Everyone says the wrong words all the time. And speaking of people who say the wrong words all the time, I think that’s a great segue to talk about having a guest.
Mike: We have a guest in the studio. Should we introduce him? Do you think he’s feeling strong?
Chris: I think he’s feeling strong. I think he got up at 4:30 this morning, worked out, probably had a shower, and is ready to lay it on us.
Mike: It is someone who gets up at 4:30. He has a hitchhiker’s thumb. He does not eat desserts. He has a massive fear of birds. And he has a wonderful Betty White impersonation from The Golden Girls. The Life Group minister at 121: Jordan Hill. Come on into the studio.
Jordan: What’s up, guys? Thank you for having me.
Chris: Welcome.
Jordan: The hitchhiker’s thumb. That was some deep research right there.
Mike: We do our research here.
Jordan: Absolutely. I’ve got two thumbs that look like I got in a fight.
Mike: For the listener, he’s showing us his thumbs. They’re pointing backwards. A hitchhiker kind of points the whole hand, but his thumb is pointing backwards without even moving his hand. I’ve never seen that.
Jordan: But thank you for having me. I’m a big fan of the pod. If you’re listening right now and you haven’t subscribed, you need to subscribe.
Mike: We did not pay him to say that.
Jordan: But I’m a fan. I also loved your “formidable years.” That was great. I didn’t know it was called a floating rib, and then we went to Chili’s too.
Mike: We covered a lot of ground before you even started. So if you go to Chili’s, and this is really for all of us, what’s your go-to at Chili’s? Do you know Jordan’s Chili’s theory?
Jordan: Chris, I don’t think you know it. I have a theory that you can judge any restaurant off of Chili’s. I think Chili’s is the perfect middle ground for quality and price. For example, I think BJ’s Restaurant is Chili’s-quality food at a higher price. So when you’re there, it’s like, “I could just go to Chili’s.” You can judge any restaurant by it, and you’re welcome, America. That’s the barometer for every restaurant.
Chris: It’s the common denominator.
Mike: On a scale of one to ten, it’s the five.
Jordan: It’s the perfect five. You leave and you’re like, “I had food.” It wasn’t horrible. It’s not going to knock your socks off. You’re not disappointed, but you’re not leaving like, “Man, I made a mistake.” You’re just leaving.
Chris: Having worked at Chili’s back in the day, I’m not going to go there. But yeah, it is food. And has anybody ever looked at the price and said, “That’s way too much”?
Mike: There are always going to be some haters out there. But it’s the average. I’ll give you that. Does your wife know about the Chili’s theory? Do you bring up Chili’s at home, and she’s like, “Here we go”?
Jordan: I did, and I got shut down real quick.
Mike: “We’ve talked about it enough.” So with every guest we have, because we have a long-standing history with guests, as you know as a subscriber, we always start off with some questions. I think Chris has some prepared questions for you.
Chris: I’m excited, because Jordan, we know you’re a baseball guy. You have a tie back to playing some college baseball. So if you were going to home plate in a major league game, what would your walk-up song be?
Mike: Big moment. Don’t stress over number one. Just pick a top one.
Jordan: All right. When I was in college, I went the Chris Tomlin “Our God” route. That was my song. I was very thankful, and I wanted to tell everybody, “Hey, I’m a believer, and this is why I’m doing it.” If I were in the big leagues, I’d probably go with something that gets the crowd going. Maybe the Rick Roll song.
Mike: “Never Gonna Give You Up”? That’s your walk-up song? That surprises me.
Chris: I think people would look forward to it when he came up to the plate.
Jordan: That’s my point. And side note, it would be way out there, but have you ever heard Tom Jones’ “Delilah”? The story is pretty intense when you actually read the lyrics. I’m pretty sure the song is about how Delilah left him and he went mad.
Mike: I want you to think about Delilah. That’s quite the crowd-pleaser. That’d be the excitement and the depression of the baseball game.
Chris: Okay, next: Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, or Harry Potter?
Jordan: Question: does Lord of the Rings include The Hobbit?
Chris: We’ll say yes.
Mike: I was going to say no. Co-host Chris is being generous.
Jordan: Okay, I’d say Lord of the Rings, then Harry Potter, then Star Wars. You didn’t ask me to rank them, but I’m going to jump in.
Chris: I kind of like that order. What was your first job?
Mike: Real paycheck. You can’t say you mowed a lawn when you were five years old. That’s not going to count.
Jordan: It was coaching, right out of the gate. I coached summer baseball. I don’t think I filled out a W-2 on that one.
Mike: Did you get paid under the table? Cash?
Chris: Maybe turn the mic off, Mike.
Jordan: It was like 25 bucks, so I don’t think anyone’s coming after me. So it was coaching. While I was in college, playing was kind of my career. That paid for school. I’m thankful my parents said, “All right, if you want to go for this, you’re going to treat it like a job.” So I didn’t have to get a job, and I really did treat it that way. And when I got done playing, I went right into collegiate coaching. That was my first real job.
Chris: Straight into collegiate coaching. Pretty good program, too.
Mike: A couple more. Do you speak any other languages?
Jordan: I know several words in Spanish. So I don’t speak it.
Mike: Don’t they say, “María está en la biblioteca”? Maria’s always in the library. She never leaves. She’s a studier. I also only have about seven or eight words of Spanish, so I can relate. Last one before we get to the main course, led by co-host Chris.
Chris: What’s a place you’ve been to that you absolutely fell in love with? Maybe not Chili’s.
Jordan: My family has gone to Florida forever, ever since I was little. We were some of the early ones down in the Seaside area, so it’s been wild to see it grow.
Mike: Like you pioneered Florida as a family?
Jordan: Well, yeah. We came right after Ponce de León and all those guys. But I love that area.
Chris: It’s grown just a bit.
Jordan: It’s crazy now.
Chris: That’s awesome. Well, I think that’s all the appetizer questions we have.
Mike: All the cheese sticks from Chili’s. Sorry, I just cut over you, Chris. I didn’t know you were going there.
Chris: We had a theme going there, Mike.
Mike: I apologize. That was very rude. I confess. So, we know who you are. We’re good friends with you. But not everyone knows who Jordan Hill is. I was reading online, and I saw you were an American politician who served as a member of the West Virginia House of Delegates for the 41st District from 2014 to 2020. That was impressive. There are a lot of Jordan Hills out there, so that may or may not be who you are.
Jordan: Fun fact: there’s a Jordan Hill who got drafted by the Knicks as a basketball player. I think he was out of Arizona. Every year when the lists of top draft busts come out, Jordan Hill gets mentioned. I’m sure he was actually a solid player. But every year, consistently, on Twitter, now X, when those lists come out, I get, “Hey, Jordan Hill, you’re the worst.”
Mike: Do you ever respond to those people?
Jordan: I think one time I said, “Hey, look, I’ve made a pretty good comeback in my life.”
Mike: That’s awesome. So tell us a little about what you do.
Jordan: I’m at 121 Community Church. That’s where I got to know these guys.
Mike: That’s us, by the way. He was pointing at us.
Chris: Nobody else is in here.
Jordan: I’m our men’s and life group minister. My role specifically is to help create community through adult small groups, which we call life groups. I try to focus primarily on men’s discipleship, and then on how to help mixed groups of husbands and wives, helping the husband lead out in that area. That’s my main role. I came on staff in 2018. Before that, I was a college baseball coach. I coached baseball at Dallas Baptist, and before that at the University of Central Arkansas. So I went the collegiate coaching route, and it has really felt like a coaching ministry. There’s a lot of coaching in it as well, so I’ve just stayed with it.
Chris: We’re glad to have you here at 121, Jordan. We’ve seen the work and effort you put in, and also the care you put in for the people you serve. You’re a coach and a minister, and you combine those two, and we get the benefits of that. So thank you for filling that role. One of the things Mike and I talked about when bringing this podcast online was what it was going to be about. And one of the things we wanted to nail down was the things men struggle with. We want to speak to them and walk through them together. We identified identity as one: not really knowing what it means to be a man these days, with different messages about how we should be. Purity, purpose, time, and then having authentic friendships, true community. I imagine in your role you see that front and center. If you had to put those in order of what you’re helping people work through, how would you prioritize them? What gets the most of your time when it comes to men?
Mike: So: identity, purity, purpose, time and community.
Jordan: That’s a great question. And it’s one of the reasons I actually love this podcast. I love y’all’s heart behind trying to connect men and help them see that we’re all equal at the foot of the cross, and we’re all being made into the image of God. So we’re not quite there, but God’s got us on a path to get there. With those, it’s hard to put one above the other as far as time. I’m not handling one more than another, and I think a lot of them build off each other. For example, if your identity is strong, then from there you know your purpose. And from there, you’re not going to stray into things that would rob you of your purity, because that goes against your purpose and your identity. And then that reorients your time as well. I’m running into all of those things.
Jordan: When I think about identity itself, like you said, Chris, there’s so much out there. A lot of people are growing platforms on “this is what a man is.” That’s been happening for a while, but I feel like it’s really ramped up recently. And I absolutely think that’s a discipleship issue. It’s something dads can really affect. I’m very fortunate to have had a great father in my life, who’s still in my life. Is he perfect? No, but he’s done a great job, so I don’t have too many father wounds. But there are a ton of dad wounds out there, and they affect people in a lot of different ways. We also don’t do things anymore like a men’s ceremony or ritual, “this is your time, you’re now a man.” We especially don’t do that here in the West. So people are starving to know what it actually means to be a man, and there’s a lot of content being put out there saying, “It looks like this, it looks like this.” I’m just trying to come in and say, “Hey, I think a man looks exactly like Jesus. So let’s follow his model.” And from there, he addresses all those different things.
Mike: What are some examples you’ve seen lately of different definitions of being a man?
Jordan: Not to take it there, but I think there’s a backlash growing. For a season, we really wanted to prop up women, as we should. They’re gifts from the Lord. But I think there’s been a backlash where guys are saying, “No, men are aggressive. Men are strong. It’s about getting out there and grinding. Forget everybody else. Be a lone wolf.” That’s a mentality that’s happening now, especially in young guys. And I think that’s just a lie. I think it’s setting them up. I know from experience that anger can be a great motivator to start, but it’ll kill you in the end. I had a conversation with a guy recently who said, “I’m just trying to get out there and prove people wrong.” And I finally asked, “Who are you talking to? Who out there is saying you’re not going to succeed?” In reality, no one is. It’s his own internal struggle. And that goes back to his identity, to where his value is. He thinks he’s only valuable for what he does, not for who he is as a son.
Jordan: At the beginning of Mark, Jesus gets baptized, the Holy Spirit descends like a dove, and God says, “This is my Son, with whom I am well pleased.” That’s before he ever started his public ministry. God was pleased with him because he was his Son. And more and more, if we can find that, that the God of the universe is pleased with us because we’re his sons, it gives a peace, a calmness. It’s what y’all talked about last episode. Now, of course, we’re aggressive. Man, we are aggressive. That’s how God designed us. But we’re supposed to be self-controlled. And I think guys are also struggling with self-control in that mindset.
Mike: So you’re saying the anger, or not the sinful anger, but that energy or adrenaline or aggressiveness, maybe determination, can fuel you at the beginning. And then we swing the pendulum: “I’m going to go prove somebody wrong. I’m going to punch someone in the face.” And it’s like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Jordan: Right. Let’s not lose that control. Last year for our men’s retreat, we looked at the life of David. Actually, Chris helped write some curriculum on it. If you look at the life of David, he has these four big movements. He starts off as a lover, a young dreamer out in the fields, but then you see he’s also a warrior, and a warrior king. I feel like all guys move through these different stages. God designed us to cultivate, to go after it, to dream about things and then chase them and accomplish them. But if we don’t do it in a healthy manner, it’ll end up destroying us. We’ll eventually be horrible leaders, and we’ll leave a real wake of destruction behind us.
Chris: And a lot of the time, when we focus on that, on what we don’t have, or on enemies, perceived or not, it puts the focus back on us. We’re trying to build ourselves up, and it’s not about building up God’s name and his greatness. It’s channeled the wrong way.
Jordan: It’s funny, I was talking about something similar with my life group this morning: doing versus being. It’s a weird balance. We want to spend time with God, and that is an act of doing, but I do it from a sincere heart, because he loves me and accepts me. Does he love me because I’m checking the box? No. In fact, he doesn’t want us to check the box. But there’s a fine balance of staying disciplined to connect with the Lord without just doing it to check it off. Does that make sense? We came to the conclusion that the only way to truly find that balance is to put yourself in community where people can really see the fruit. Are you increasing in joy? Can I visibly see it: “Mike, I can just tell you’re more peaceful”? If you’re just checking the box, you might be spending time with the Lord, but it’s not sinking in, and Chris and I would be able to see that and call it out in you.
Mike: We’ve talked about that a lot with our kids. They’ll go spend time with Jesus and come back two minutes later: “Done.” No, no, no. Jesus is not a box to check. I feel like that’s a good picture: anytime we go into time with the Lord, are we treating it like a box to check, or is it cultivating a real relationship? And since they’re in our family, we do see the fruit, good fruit or bad fruit. Do you think that’s a big struggle for men today? Even if they’re spending time with Jesus, they’re treating it from a doing standpoint, like a task?
Jordan: Absolutely. And I think you can only do that for so long until you say, “Forget this. I’m not doing it.”
Mike: Because it’s empty. It’s not going to be fulfilling.
Jordan: There’s only a special kind of person who can white-knuckle it, grit and bare their teeth, for that long. Eventually you go, “No, forget this. I’m not doing it anymore.” And I also think men are buying into this idea, and I fall into this trap all the time, that you can literally do it all. You can wake up, answer every email before you start the day, work out, have a side business, play four rounds of golf and be the best golfer out there, be a day trader who understands every aspect of stocks, be a phenomenal chef, be an expert in cars and have the perfect lawn.
Mike: Wait, are you saying you don’t do those things? I kind of feel like that’s Chris’s experience.
Chris: That was so formidable.
Mike: Finish him.
Jordan: I think guys go, “Okay, here’s my block of time. I’m going to knock this out and move on.” And we don’t actually say no. “I’m going to say no to this thing so I can spend more time with the Lord.” I’ve been doing something recently. I got asked to be part of a group where we’re really stretching ourselves with spiritual disciplines. Part of that was giving up one thing for a 30-day period. So I’ve been fasting several different things, and I didn’t realize how many things had their hooks in me. This last month, I fasted from one of my favorite sports podcasts. And I’ve noticed: okay, I’m not up to date on the current sports thing, and that’s okay. Was it okay at first? No. That’s the point. I realized I’d fallen into that trap a bit. I’ve got to say no to whatever ancillary thing it is, even if it’s also great, so I can focus on the more important things. It’s what you’re talking about, Chris, with time. We’re buying into the idea that you can be an expert in everything. And the most successful people I’ve seen, not just in following the Lord, but in general, in the coaching world and the business world, are experts in one thing. They do that thing over and over and over again, and then they just take off. But in today’s world, everything’s important. Everything is breaking news. Everything is “you have to do this.” We just keep chasing, and the next thing you know, it’s like, “Have I done anything? I’ve just been spinning around.” I don’t even know if I’ve grown at all, because I’m just super familiar with 40 different things.
Mike: A quantity-over-quality kind of thing.
Jordan: There’s basically no quality at the end.
Chris: Wow. Knowing that’s what we face out there as men, and in your role at 121, you put out a lot of great resources and try to help as much as possible. So, not what resources are out there to help men, but what resources are available that you find men are not using?
Jordan: I think guys aren’t spending enough time in the Word, soaking in God’s Word and letting the Holy Spirit speak to them. They go to all these different commentaries and resources, and we should. Those are good. But I think we need to treat them almost like a supplement. Here’s the thing with a supplement: if you take it too long, your body stops producing that thing, and now you’re dependent on it. I think that happens in our spiritual lives. Plenty of people go, “What does Francis Chan say about this verse? What does John Piper say?” And we just repeat what they say, instead of asking, “Wait, what is God trying to speak to me in John 15 here?”
Jordan: One of the first guys who discipled me was relentless about this. I loved God’s Word growing up, but I liked that I could use it like theological chess and win arguments. And this guy, Joey, kept asking, “Hey, what do you feel like God’s telling you?” It would put me back on my heels. I’d say, “Well, if you understand what I think the meaning of this is…” And he’d say, “No, no, that’s great. But what do you think God wants you to do with that?” He was relentless. And finally I realized, I don’t even know what I, Jordan Hill, think about this. I could tell you what Matt Chandler or John Piper said, but what do I actually think?
Mike: So he was challenging you to apply it, to personalize it. You were more in it for “this is what it says,” and he said, “That’s great, but for you, what’s the change?”
Jordan: Absolutely. So I think most men just aren’t going to the Word themselves, which makes them not confident enough to lead their family in it or share it with a coworker or a friend. They go straight to, “Hey, let me send you this thing some other guy who has spent time with the Lord said.” That’s great, but that person has never met Tim Keller. They’re not sitting next to him. They know you, Chris. They’ve seen how you’ve lived your life, so they’d actually rather hear from you.
Mike: It’s so crazy, because there are thousands of other resources, and there’s one simple book we’re talking about here. Why do you think that’s such a barrier for the average guy? We can tell a guy that truth, and he says, “Yeah, I know.” Well, then read it. Why is that so hard?
Jordan: I think it’s because it is a hard book. It’s a difficult book to understand, but it’s not impossible. And that goes into the second resource people don’t use: we don’t bring other people with us into digging into God’s Word and into our lives. We’re so quick to look at other experts out there and what they’re doing, and we should, they’re great, instead of asking, “What does my buddy Mike have to say? How does he see me living this out?” Bring in a close group of friends and invite them into your life. Even with the Word: “Hey, what do you see in this?” Or go to someone and say, “I see you living this out, and you’re really good at it. Can you teach me?” Something happens when we get older where we stop going to other people and saying, “Do you mind teaching me?” Very rarely is someone looking around going, “Can I come alongside this guy and mentor him, disciple him, teach him?” Ninety percent of the time, it has to be the other way around: reaching out to you, Chris, and saying, “Hey, I see this in you. Will you please help me do this?”
Chris: That is a difference maker: having somebody who can observe you, listen to you and come back with what the Word says. If you’re doing that in a one-on-one mentoring relationship, that’s fantastic. But you’ve also talked about the value of having good friends around you.
Jordan: I think that takes you saying, “I’m not the expert.”
Chris: Which is hard for me. It’s humbling.
Jordan: “I’m not the expert in this. Will you please help me?” Some of what I’ve tried to build into the culture of our men is: we’ve got experts in various things here. Let’s reach out to them and pull them in. Even a little thing: “Chris, I know you’re great at writing. You’ve got great insights. Will you help me write something?” More and more of our guys are there, and it connects us more, because it’s like, “Oh, wow, I get to help do this. It’s something I love to do.” And from there, I get to learn and grow. But it starts with admitting I’m not an expert in everything.
Mike: The irony is that most men who don’t do these things, and I’m assuming you’d affirm this, are probably really isolated. Lone wolves, like you said. And the Bible is going to be the last thing a guy gets to after consuming thousands of other kinds of content. I also wonder about the role of spiritual warfare, the enemy. Because what you’re describing isn’t complicated, professor-level, expert stuff. It’s pretty basic: get into God’s Word and grab a friend. It sounds so basic, but it seems impossible for us.
Chris: It seems like an uphill climb.
Mike: A massive one. Just go ask a friend, and that seems like a challenge. So I wonder if the enemy has us behind this little facade: “I’m consuming content, so I’m good. I have social media contacts. I listen to these shows, or even a podcast, so I have my friends.” It’s just enough that we think we’re eking by. But in reality, we’re missing the main thing. We’re checking boxes: “I’m listening to this, so I’ve got my community. I read this one verse, so I’ve got my Bible.” And we’re totally missing it.
Jordan: It’s like this: I love the comedian Nate Bargatze. I can tell you a lot about him. I could tell you so much that you’d think, “Man, you really know this guy.” And in a way, I kind of do. But he doesn’t know me at all. If I saw him in person and said, “Hey, what’s up, Nate?” he seems like a nice guy, he might give me a head nod, but he’s not going to say, “Hey, what’s up, buddy?” Not at all. And I worry for men, especially in our area, that we know a lot about Jesus, but we don’t actually know him, and we don’t spend time with him. And vice versa: he doesn’t know us.
Mike: That’s terrifying.
Chris: That is very sobering.
Jordan: You’ve got to humble yourself and spend time with him. When you start, you’re not going to know it all, and that’s okay. But the more you do it and stick with it, the more you’ll start to see different things and how they connect. It’s so simple. I used to say this to my baseball players: the best hitters hit all the time. The best fielders take a thousand ground balls. It’s the same thing. Steph Curry is the best shooter because he shoots all the time. There’s this weird thing when we get older: we assume we’re supposed to be great the very first time we do something, and when we’re not, it’s a check on our pride. So we just don’t even try.
Mike: I think it’s cultural too, right? The stories we hear are all about the greats. You don’t often hear about the common man. It’s not as attractive to write news articles about. So the average guy goes, “Well, great, I’m not an 18-year-old athlete making $30 million.”
Chris: “Bill woke up at 6 a.m., got in his car and drove to work.” It’s just not compelling.
Mike: What would you say to a guy listening right now who goes, “Okay, Jordan, that’s great. I hear that I need to spend time with God, but I don’t know what that means. I don’t know what to do.” If you were sitting in front of him right now, what’s a basic first step?
Jordan: The first thing I would tell him, and I don’t mean this as a plug for 121: you need to be connected to a local church. I actually think that’s a big issue. We’ve got a lot of people who are just on the periphery, but not actually connected to a local body. So start there. Get connected to a local church. Then ask a guy to meet up with you, like we’ve talked about, and talk about the Word from there. And then just open it up. To me, it’s never a bad idea to start in Genesis and just read. Start in Genesis and keep going. Absolutely, it’s going to get a little confusing for a while, and that’s okay.
Mike: Keep reading.
Chris: Power through.
Jordan: Because it will actually start to unfold a bit and make more sense. Once you work your way through, you’re like, “Oh, I see this.” And sometimes God takes you down these different trails, almost like rabbit holes, that surprise you. The other day I was in Jude, and I just hung out on a word, and God took me to Jeremiah, because that word was repeated there. And all of a sudden I started getting convicted over my own sin. I had no plans for that, but that’s what God wanted me to do. And from a pure Bible-study standpoint, you’ll never be off if you just ask, “What does this say about Jesus?” You’ll never get too far out of balance with what Jesus is like. Ask, “What does this say about Jesus?” and stick with that.
Mike: That’s good. Chris, how have you encouraged a guy to get started?
Chris: I love what Jordan said there. If you’re going to start somewhere, it doesn’t have to be Genesis. It can be reading a Gospel, like the Gospel of John: getting an understanding of who Jesus is and why he came. Then you can go back and fill it in later. Kind of like The Lord of the Rings, where you get the full story and then go back to The Hobbit. So I would just say, get started.
Mike: That’s been my encouragement too, especially about the local church. Right before I was a Christian, I had some rough experiences with local churches. But really it was because of me and my perception of what was going on. Some people have had bad experiences, or heard about them. Y’all can check me here, but I feel like our encouragement would be: “Man, we’re sorry for what you’ve experienced. That doesn’t define Christianity or the church as a whole. But don’t write it off.” And sometimes people think, “I watched something online, so that’s my church box checked.” That’s going to be quantity over quality. It’s worth it to go experience being part of real community. And the thing is, we’re lacking it. If we’re honest, a lot of guys are lonely. But the average guy is never going to come out and say, “I’m lonely.” That’s the last thing any of us would say. Regardless, in your mind right now, you know if you are or not.
Jordan: And then you’ve got to do something with that. Reach out to somebody and say, “Let’s meet up for coffee or breakfast or lunch, or go to Chili’s.”
Mike: The average place to be.
Jordan: Let’s have some floating ribs with some skillet queso. And let’s just talk and dig in. And if you’re an introvert, still do it. Just try to bust out of your shell with somebody. And I think this is a good word too: there are introverts out there. So if you’re an extrovert, look for the guy who’s not doing that. I think God’s given us that purpose. If you’re an extrovert, look on the fringes and on the horizon to pull somebody in. That’s what Jesus himself did. God puts you there to be that guy, to reach that guy. So go do it.
Mike: It’s worth it. What have you learned since you came on staff in 2018? We’re six years in, and it’s 2024.
Jordan: I don’t know about y’all, but somebody said this the other day, and I thought it was so spot-on: it feels like 2019 was last year.
Mike: It really does. That’s what COVID has done to all of us. Pretty much every timeline now is before COVID and after COVID. What are some newer strategies out there? We’re not talking about changing any principles of the Bible. Those are in the Bible. But the methods are going to be different from the 1800s to now, and even over the last six years. Are there any examples where you’ve seen something work one way before, but now it’s more like this? What are some new things you’ve noticed culturally with guys?
Jordan: Of course we need to be upbeat, and there is joy in the Lord. But I think people are getting a little tired of everything always being up and bright and big. There’s been so much noise recently that people are looking for something more… humility isn’t the right word.
Mike: Do you mean “big” like exciting and amazing?
Jordan: Not to be one of those guys who says “the church,” but I think we got into a place where everything was a big, massive event. And I’m not saying let’s not be excited. A coach used to tell me, “The big time is where you’re at,” and I fully believe that. But people are looking for something a little more serious, maybe more real.
Mike: Authentic?
Jordan: I think a little more authentic. We’ve been through so much in the last few years that people are looking for a place where they can just come and be. Even in song lyrics, people are looking for a little more depth. We’ve been in this position of, “Okay, wait, what does that even mean?” So people are looking for a little more realness and depth. I also think people today are looking for not “What does this expert say?” but “Can someone sit down with me and show me what’s right?” For example, when my son, Knox, and my daughter, Piper, were born, there were so many articles for Ashley and me to read, and so many parenting podcasts. Ashley really dug in and read everything, from “If you hug your kid once when they cry, they’re never going to leave the house” to “If you let them cry for even a minute, they will unequivocally become a serial killer.” You’re like, “What am I going to do?” There’s so much content out there that you don’t even know what to do. I’ll never forget: Ashley and I were driving to a conference, and I said, “That’s it. No more resources. No more looking at people on Instagram. We’re going to talk to somebody we know and trust.” So we reached out to a woman in our church who has done that a lot, and it has been so helpful. So I think people now want to hear from people they know: “Hey, how do you handle your finances? What do y’all do in marriage conflict? I see it in you.” Because we’ve seen, unfortunately, so many people on platforms fall. Geez, we just had another one like this last week. And it’s like, is everything just a facade? So who is the person I know, that I see all the time, that I can ask, “What do you mean by that? What did you do in this situation?” Someone I can trust. Does that make sense? I think people are starving for that now.
Mike: To know and trust.
Chris: And be able to see it. Everything a good relationship has, right?
Mike: That’s good. I’ve actually gotten that feedback specifically over the past six months or so: “Can you just point me to a real human, instead of a resource or an article?” I guess it’s the paradox of choice, or paralysis by analysis. There are all these terms for it. There’s too much.
Jordan: There’s too much. It’s probably a little hyperbolic, but think about customer service now. I had to call my credit card company the other day.
Mike: Terrible customer service.
Jordan: No one cares. It’s like, “We know there’s nothing you can do about it, and guess what? We don’t care.” That’s our life now. It’s so weird. You go to a restaurant, someone says, “Have a great day,” and you’re like, “That’s the nicest person ever.”
Mike: Oh, yeah. Joelle was at Walmart not too long ago, and their system was down. They said, “Sorry, our system is down.” And she asked, “Does that mean I pick it up now or later? Do you know when it’ll be up?” And they just said, “It’s down.” Stone-faced, looking at her like, “Why would you ask me that?” And she’s like, “I’m the customer. Aren’t you supposed to know?” “But the system’s down. Have a good day.”
Chris: But we notice whenever we do see great customer service, or at least basic care.
Mike: Basic human care.
Jordan: That’s my point. And we’ve got to be careful, especially with AI. Let’s use AI for what it’s worth. But people are tired of just being on a text chain. Sure, I got the update, but I actually want to talk to a human. I’m a little sick of just getting text invites, and pretty much no one reads their emails anymore. As a church, we’re getting really good at being fast and efficient that way. But if we’re not careful, we’ll miss the human-to-human.
Mike: We’re going to take the human out of it. With any customer service, I’m always like, “Agent. Person. Agent, please.” You go through 30 pop-ups just to get to a real person.
Chris: I even press random numbers.
Jordan: It takes you 20 minutes to get somebody. And do they care?
Mike: Then the first person goes, “Hey, can I help you?” and you’re like, “This is so nice. Thank you.”
Chris: For sure. Okay, so knowing that men’s ministry is your main focus, we also know there are women tuning in who might want to hear what’s encouraging you about men’s ministry going forward. Of course, it’s not just about men. It’s about the people their lives impact: wives, girlfriends, daughters. What are you excited about? What trends are you seeing?
Jordan: It’s a great question.
Mike: Dynamite question.
Jordan: For example, last night: we do a summer Bible study, and we’re going through the book of Isaiah. When we were planning it, we absolutely had the conversation of, “Is anyone going to show up? Are people actually going to be interested in studying Isaiah?” And you know what? This has been the highest numbers we’ve ever had. We split between men and women, and at first we thought, “Okay, with the number of people we’ve had, maybe ten guys will come.” We had to keep adding chairs. It was right around a 55-45 split, which was really incredible. So I think people are just hungry for that.
Mike: I would have personally thought, and this sounds bad, I’m obviously hoping people show up, but part of me is really surprised how many people came. What do you think the draw is?
Jordan: At 121 in particular, I think we’ve been doing this consistently, and we’re getting better at it every year. People are interested. They’re saying, “I’ve never studied the book of Isaiah. I’d like to dig in. This is something I’ve always danced around, or maybe we’ve just read two big chapters or two verses out of it. I want to actually know it.” And I think people love their community, so they’re doing it together. God has particularly gifted us here with some very talented women who can teach God’s Word and bring phenomenal insights. I love seeing that. And people are hungry to learn, which is really neat. So I’m excited about that. I’m also excited, in ministry in general, about the hunger, the desire for older people to pour back into younger people. There’s been a really cool resurgence of people not just saying, “Well, these young people don’t know anything, blah, blah, blah.”
Mike: “These young youths of America. Young whippersnappers.”
Jordan: I’m younger than you two guys in here.
Mike: We’re going there? I mean, you are younger than co-host Chris.
Jordan: But I’m seeing a lot of, “Hey, I want to actually pour into someone younger,” which is pretty neat. And we’re seeing God do some incredible stuff across the nations. He really is moving globally, and it’s exciting to be part of it. It’s exciting to see God bring the nations to us in particular, and the hunger that’s out there. We see people coming to Christ by the thousands in Brazil, in the Middle East, in Southeast Asia. God’s moving. It can seem pretty bleak here, and I don’t think it is. Sure, it’s getting darker in some ways, but it’s also getting brighter in many ways. That’s what I’m really excited about.
Mike: That’s a lot to be excited about. And for someone who’s the youngest in the room, you’ve said the word “neat” a lot. I feel like the average age of people who say “neat” is maybe 80, but you chose to say it multiple times.
Jordan: I think it’s probably because this is another way for me to sneak this in: it was my birthday yesterday. That’s what happens when you turn a year older.
Mike: “Neat” was your way to sneak it in. Well, this is the part of the interview where we transition. Thank you for sharing all that. This is the lightning round. We’re going to alternate questions. Listen, you cannot overthink these. If you take too long, you’re disqualified, and your interview will be deleted from this podcast.
Jordan: This is going to be like improv games.
Mike: He’s saying words like “neat.” I think he’s ready. Chris, start us off.
Chris: Start us off, Jordan. This is the dessert lightning round. You can see any music artist in concert. Who do you pick?
Jordan: Dave Matthews Band. That’s my favorite.
Mike: East Coast or West Coast?
Jordan: East Coast.
Chris: Mountains or beach?
Jordan: Beach.
Mike: Motorcycle or Jet Ski?
Jordan: Jet Ski, a hundred percent.
Chris: Greatest sports team ever assembled?
Jordan: I’m going to say the 2010 Southern Arkansas Muleriders. That was my team.
Mike: Best pizza in Dallas-Fort Worth?
Jordan: My wife’s sourdough pizza that she makes. Do you hear that, honey? Love you. I will also say Cane Rosso is really good.
Chris: You spend a lot of time in coffee shops, I would imagine, in your role. Best coffee shop in town?
Jordan: I’m not a coffee connoisseur. However, we’ve got a great story with a good coffee shop, Redefined, so I’ll say Redefined, because I helped start them.
Mike: Lightning round continuing. Calm down. Dogs or cats?
Jordan: Dogs all day.
Mike: Thank you.
Chris: Running or lifting?
Jordan: Lifting.
Mike: If you were a superhero, who would you be?
Jordan: Batman.
Chris: If someone were to narrate your life story, the story of Jordan Hill, who would it be?
Jordan: Matthew McConaughey.
Mike: And here we go, last question: one of your favorite comedians.
Jordan: Fun fact: I really love comedians. I love learning the process too. Bargatze. John Mulaney is a great one.
Mike: You have to pick only one.
Jordan: Probably John Mulaney.
Mike: John Mulaney. All right, there we go. You are off the hot seat. The lightning round is complete. How do you think he did?
Chris: I think he did great. The Dave Matthews, I’m a fan as well, so we’re really good on that. What about you, Mike?
Mike: On the lightning round questions? I think the lightning round is reserved for our guests. Are you wanting to do a double lightning round? Are you putting me on the lightning round?
Jordan: It’s going to be a thunderstorm.
Mike: I think we should reserve my lightning round for later. Let’s give each other one question, to be fair, for Jordan’s birthday. Running or lifting for you?
Chris: I would say lifting.
Mike: Give me an easy question. Go.
Chris: An easy question would be: if someone were to narrate your life story, who would it be?
Mike: I’m clearly Morgan Freeman, since we know him in person. Whoa, Morgan. Thanks for stepping in, out of North Richland Hills. Morgan, why don’t you see us out? Thank Jordan for us.
Chris: Jordan Hill, thank you for being here. Thank you for being Not Quite There.
Jordan: What an honor.
Outro: Thanks so much for joining us. Please consider rating and reviewing our podcast and hitting subscribe on whichever platform you prefer. Remember to keep moving forward, because we’re not quite there.
